BlindSeeker Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,076 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2006 The arrival of the prophesied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,076 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2006 In the entirety of the creation story, the word translated "God" is "Elohyim", which is actually a "uniplural" word. Meaning more than one person is speaking. And yet at the same time, this "more than one person" is one "Being". So the "Us" in the passage in verse 26 is referring not to angels, but to the other members of the Godhead. That is not a refutation, it is an opinion you share with others. You willingly ignore the information submitted for prayerful consideration - which is obvious by your hasty reply. Have you never considered that the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,076 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30, 2006 Could not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I haven't had time to get back to this topic for some time so I am going to give you all some food for thought. First we all say that there is one God (Galatians 3:20). There is no argument there. Now I will try to help some understand that Jesus Christ is that one God and not another person of God. John 10:30 says, I and my Father are one. This is not a unity, but a reference to them being one in the same. The Jews understood this and killed Him because of it. Colossians 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." This says all the fullness, not a part but all, meaning the Father is dwelling in him (the man Jesus Christ). I Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." If trinitarians would just understand the fact that Jesus was fully God and fully man, this doctrine would be seen for its heresies. James 2:19, also tells us that there is one God and that we should believe this, why not say here three persons in one God if that is what God wanted. The trinity is a man-made doctrine that was established 300 years after the apostles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. If Jesus is not a seperate person from the Father, then this statement could not be true. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Watch this, Jesus' own words... Jn. 14: 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. So there is a clear distinction between the personality of Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit, to the point that Jesus denies ownership of the words he speaks, and attributes them exclusively to the Father. Again, this could only be true if there is a triune nature to God... In revelation 5 we see the Lamb, who is Jesus, is a SEPERATE person from the Father, who is sitting on the throne. In revelation 3:12, the speaker, who was earlier identified as Jesus, and as the "First and the Last", refers to one whom he calls "My God". If Jesus is the First and the Last, how can he have a God? Unless that "God" is the Father, a seperate person from himself? Revelation 22:16 (Whole Chapter) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you. this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." This proves that Jesus is deity, and at the same time Eternally the "Son of God"; and that he did not simply gain that title due to the incarnation or the resurrection. Because he is at the same time the root, and the offspring of David. This is exactly why Jesus asked the pharisees the following... Matt. 22:42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44The LORD(the father) said unto my Lord(the Son), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (parenthesis mine.) Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Again we see that Jesus is a seperate person from the Father, and yet eternally deity in and of himself. I don't have time to explain all these to you, but I don't think you have a clear understanding of Jesus as man and God. No offense here. Alot of what you just said has to do with His humanity relating to His deity. Nowhere does the verses you use show a trinity. Maybe I John 5:7 but we all know that this verse was added in the 1500's and can't be found on any old manuscripts of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Here are some basic questions for you to answer. 1) How can the Son not know as much as the Father, yet be Co-EQUAL? (Matt. 24:36) 2) How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the "begotten" Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6) 3) Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60). 4) There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8, 18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit? 5) Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter. 6) If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10) 7) Show me anywhere in the Bible where these phrases are used: Three-in-One, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, eternally begotten, three distinct but co-equal and co-eternal, three separate but united in power and purpose; persons in the Godhead, the person of the Holy Ghost, the person of the Father, three but not three but One, three expressed as One, triune God. Check this out: God is Eternal and what does the word son mean, "offspring". A being that is Eternal and an offspring is impossible to explain or comprehend because it is an impossibility!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? What do you all think this is saying, without using your trinitarian minds. Just take it for what it says and see that there are not three persons in the Godhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Here are some basic questions for you to answer. 1) How can the Son not know as much as the Father, yet be Co-EQUAL? (Matt. 24:36) 2) How can there be an eternal Son when the Bible speaks of the "begotten" Son, clearly indicating that the Son had a beginning? (John 3:16; Hebrews 1:5-6) 3) Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father (John 4:21-24), yet Stephen prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59-60). 4) There is only one throne in heaven (Revelation 4:2). Who sits upon it? We know Jesus does (Revelation 1:8, 18, 4:8). Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit? 5) Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus? Colossians 2:9 says the latter. 6) If Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? (Luke 12:10) 7) Show me anywhere in the Bible where these phrases are used: Three-in-One, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, eternally begotten, three distinct but co-equal and co-eternal, three separate but united in power and purpose; persons in the Godhead, the person of the Holy Ghost, the person of the Father, three but not three but One, three expressed as One, triune God. Check this out: God is Eternal and what does the word son mean, "offspring". A being that is Eternal and an offspring is impossible to explain or comprehend because it is an impossibility!!! Points 1, 2, 5, and 6. All of these are assumptions or misquided questions based on your limited experience with a few years of linear time. Recall, scripture records that Jesus prayed and asked the Father to glorify him with the glory he had WITH the Father, before the World was. So the glory he recieved after the resurrection was ACTUALLY the same glory he had from the beginning.(Jn. 17:5, ) Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. In the new testament, "Son of Man" and "Jesus" are interchangable. They are one and the same. Recall also that in Revelation 1, John identifies the Speaker as the "Son of Man" and the Speaker identifies himself as "The First and the Last"i.e. Deity. The Same speaker identifies himself as the "Root and the Offspring of David", meaning he is AT THE SAME TIME fully God and fully man. You cannot seperate the humanity of Jesus from the Deity of Jesus, because he IS the Root of David, and he IS the Offspring of David. Then the same speaker anounces in chapter 3 that he in fact has a God, who is the Father. This in spite of the fact that he is himself fully God. Point 3. This is a trick question that is really irrelevant to the issue at hand. Point 4 you have diliberately ignored revelation 5, and as well the passages from Hebrews and the psalms., and as well other passages. point 7: None of those terms appears directly in scripture, I agree, but that does not refute the underlying principles I have shown nor of the doctrine of the trinity. Those terms don't appear because the doctrine is man-made. The verbage used to explain it are not biblical. And I agree with you that Jesus was both fully-man and fully-God. Jesus can say that he has a God because he was a man. He can say that He is the first and the last because He is God. But He is not God the Son, He is God the Father manifested in flesh. The Son is not eternal. It does not say that HE is anywhere in the Bible. He was born of a woman at a specific time in Bethlehem. He was there in the beginning, but only as the thought or plan of the Father. The Father knew that we would fall and it was the Sonship that made Him go through with His plan of creating us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 So I guess by all your verses on the right hand of God, you are implying that when we get to heaven we will see Jesus literally sitting on the right hand of God? I thought you said He was God. I guess the Holy Spirit will be sitting on His knee. It makes no sense. You can interpret anyway you want, but the monotheistic Jews who wrote the Bible did not believe in a trinity and neither will I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted January 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 When you start separating the Father from Jesus, you are saying we have a tritheistic God. We only have one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. This is what the apostles and Jesus wanted us to understand. Why do you think the Pharisees wanted to kill him? Because He claimed to be God the Father. (The Father and I are one). If this were a trinity, why not claim the Holy Spirit in this verse. Because our God is an invisible Spirit who is holy. God is a Holy Spirit, thus they are one in the same. Just different ways God shows Himself to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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