The Trinity?

[BlindSeeker]

The three persons of God shown at Christ's baptism:

When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened

That's Jesus

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove.

That's the Holy Spirit

And a voice came from heaven:

[Guest shiloh357]

All that rebuttal for nothing.

I guess you just can't get it or won't take the time to really listen to me.

I have never said angels took part in the creation of anything. I simply stated that I believe they were included by God to be witnesses of it . . . especially the creation of Adam.

First off, had you bothered to pay any attention, my initial remarks which you took issue with were not addressed to YOU, but to someone who WAS asserting that since God was talking to angels, that angels were taking part. I assumed that since you disagreed with me, that you were taking up that person's position. I am sorry I misunderstood you. Furthermore, my contention was also that angels were merely present at creation.

[ruah brit]

The three persons of God shown at Christ's baptism:

When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened

That's Jesus

and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove.

That's the Holy Spirit

And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

That's the Father

(quotes from Luke 3:21,22 ; paralell accounts in Mk. 1:9-11, Mt. 3:13-17; event mentioned in Jn. 1:32)

Concerning Luke 3:21 22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

What is being witnessed in the verse is the humanity of Christ locked in time and space being baptized by John. The voice is His who inhabits eternity, all time and space.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

The sign of the dove was a sign for John, I do not believe it was witnessed by all.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Of course the Holy Spirit also inhabits eternity and space and cannot be assumed to be contained in the frame of a dove. It was merely symbolic.

Remember as well, while Jesus was here as a man locked in time and space, he did claim to be in heaven as well . . . go figure.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

No being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but HE who fills the heavens and the earth.

By Jesus' own words we know that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:29). Therefore, God in His pure essence as a spirit is not limited to a finite visible form. Being omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time, throughout time, at the same time - past, present, future. Therefore Jesus, while locked in time and space by His human flesh, through prayer communed with His Omnipresent Spirit, "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15).

Now ponder this, if you could simply go back one minute in time you could both see and be with yourself. You could even talk to yourself. Would that make you two? Certainly it seems there was two. Nevertheless, in truth you are still only one. One in heart, one in mind, but in two places. It is the escape from time's hold that affords you the ability to be in two places at simultaneously. You, from the future, could warn yourself of what is yet to come. This is what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus. “No man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven,” (John 3:13). Jesus was there talking to Nicodemus, yet referring to Himself as “is in heaven.” It is this unique aspect of God's Omnipresence that causes Him to know those who would be saved from the foundations of the world.

Concerning Jesus and the Father, how do you understand Isaiah 9:6 then?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I'm sure you believe Jesus is the Prince of Peace . . . why is he not the Everlasting Father?

God is in time. He inhabits his creation that includes time. Time does not affect Him because there is nothing that He can learn. He does not Change or grow old. There is nothing or no one more powerful that He would answer to them. He answers just the same, to Himself. God is all powerful and can cause time to stand still or go back but that is still happening in the time that He does it and not the past. When He speaks it will come to pass at any cost and can not be annulled. When the past is past, it is gone. God is not in the past, He was in the Past, He is here now and will be here tomorrow and forever.

Denise

Edited January 23, 2006 by ruah brit

[Kabowd]

For AnotherTraveler and Blindseeker: could you please answer these questions directly because I am confused as to where you stand.

1. Do you, or do you not believe in God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit? Why or why not?

2. Do you, or do you not believe that in Genesis 1 "our image" was referring to God's image? Why or why not?

3. Do you, or do you not believe that angels were part of the creation process (i.e, helped with creation)? Why or why not?

4. Do you believe that God is on a level by Himself, and that angels and all other creations (including us) are beneath Him? Why or why not?

5. If not, do you believe that angels are equal with God? Why or why not?

I guess we can start from there, because I am honestly very confused about what the two of you are trying to convey. Please clarify what exactly you are disagreeing with here. Thank you.

[Iryssa]

The sign of the dove was a sign for John, I do not believe it was witnessed by all.

I don't see any evidence for this in the text.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Of course the Holy Spirit also inhabits eternity and space and cannot be assumed to be contained in the frame of a dove. It was merely symbolic.

Remember as well, while Jesus was here as a man locked in time and space, he did claim to be in heaven as well . . . go figure.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

No being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but HE who fills the heavens and the earth.

By Jesus' own words we know that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:29). Therefore, God in His pure essence as a spirit is not limited to a finite visible form. Being omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time, throughout time, at the same time - past, present, future. Therefore Jesus, while locked in time and space by His human flesh, through prayer communed with His Omnipresent Spirit, "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15).

Now ponder this, if you could simply go back one minute in time you could both see and be with yourself. You could even talk to yourself. Would that make you two? Certainly it seems there was two. Nevertheless, in truth you are still only one. One in heart, one in mind, but in two places. It is the escape from time's hold that affords you the ability to be in two places at simultaneously. You, from the future, could warn yourself of what is yet to come. This is what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus.

[Honest Heart]

Friends,

If I might be able to interject a little something here. In Revelations 1:6 John speaks of Jesus sayig..."and has made us kings and priests to HIS GOD AND FATHER,". and again in Rev. 3:12 Jesus tells us that, "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar In the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go out no more.I will write on him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD...".

Also in Heb. 1:8,9 it says concerning Jesus: "But to the son He says: "'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more that your COMPANIONS." I the angels weren't his companions to whom was this refering?

Also in 1 Pet. 1:3 it says, "Blessed be the GOD and FATHER of our lord Jesus Christ." and again in Eph. 1:3 It says the same thing, exactly. And in verse 17 it says, "that the GOD of our lord Jesus Christ, the father of glory..."

And when Jesus was speaking to Mary outside his tomb he said that he was must ascend to "my God and your God'

And just one more thing in John where it says that "you and I are one" Jesus also prayed that his followers should also "be one, as You, Father, are in me, an I in you: that they also may be one in Us." and in the next verse: "that they may be one just as we are one..." This showing what Unico said about oneness in purpose is what he ment is exactly that. Not that they were one person. Other wise ALL his followers would also be in the godhead.

These seem very clear that God, Almighty God YHWH, is in fact the God of Jesus just as He is our God. Not to mention that the Jews of old never concidered God to be anything but just One God. Not 3-in-1, but ONE.

[Guest shiloh357]

Friends,

If I might be able to interject a little something here. In Revelations 1:6 John speaks of Jesus sayig..."and has made us kings and priests to HIS GOD AND FATHER,". and again in Rev. 3:12 Jesus tells us that, "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar In the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go out no more.I will write on him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from MY GOD...".

Also in Heb. 1:8,9 it says concerning Jesus: "But to the son He says: "'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more that your COMPANIONS." I the angels weren't his companions to whom was this refering?

Also in 1 Pet. 1:3 it says, "Blessed be the GOD and FATHER of our lord Jesus Christ." and again in Eph. 1:3 It says the same thing, exactly. And in verse 17 it says, "that the GOD of our lord Jesus Christ, the father of glory..."

And when Jesus was speaking to Mary outside his tomb he said that he was must ascend to "my God and your God'

And just one more thing in John where it says that "you and I are one" Jesus also prayed that his followers should also "be one, as You, Father, are in me, an I in you: that they also may be one in Us." and in the next verse: "that they may be one just as we are one..." This showing what Unico said about oneness in purpose is what he ment is exactly that. Not that they were one person. Other wise ALL his followers would also be in the godhead.

These seem very clear that God, Almighty God YHWH, is in fact the God of Jesus just as He is our God. Not to mention that the Jews of old never concidered God to be anything but just One God. Not 3-in-1, but ONE.

Part of the confusion exists in your mishandling of these Scriptures because you are failing to take into account that Jesus is both fully man and fully God. From His human perspective, He calls God "My God." However, Jesus is also God.

Jesus' Deity is completely undeniable. He is called God in Hebrews: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

(Hebrews 1:8)

He is called God in John chapter one: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

Jesus of his volition forgave sins and received worship as God.

If Jesus is not God, then no one is saved. Jesus could not die for our sins if He was not God. It can be demonstrated from both the OT and the NT that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and that thy Holy Spirit is God. No one who rejects the Deity of Jesus can truly claim to be a Christian. There is no room in biblical Christianity for the rejection of full Deity of Jesus.

[Unico]

For AnotherTraveler and Blindseeker: could you please answer these questions directly because I am confused as to where you stand.

Or you might want my stand also.

I'll try to answer them if you won't mind.

1. Do you, or do you not believe in God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit? Why or why not?

I believe that the Father is the ONLY true God. He ALONE [and no other beside Him] is the true God. And there's no Scriptural expression of "God the Son" nor the "God the Holy Spirit".

2. Do you, or do you not believe that in Genesis 1 "our image" was referring to God's image? Why or why not?

I believe that God created man "according to His image". This "image" of course, as it is obvious, is the "image of God".

3. Do you, or do you not believe that angels were part of the creation process (i.e, helped with creation)? Why or why not?

The Bible has no mention that the angels helped God during creation. The Creator - that's the Father - ALONE created everything.

4. Do you believe that God is on a level by Himself, and that angels and all other creations (including us) are beneath Him? Why or why not?

5. If not, do you believe that angels are equal with God? Why or why not?

God is all-powerful. The Father will always be greater than anybody else.

I guess we can start from there, because I am honestly very confused about what the two of you are trying to convey. Please clarify what exactly you are disagreeing with here. Thank you.

Sorry, if I answered the questions not intended to me. I also wanted to present to you my contention in this discussion.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe that the Father is the ONLY true God. He ALONE [and no other beside Him] is the true God. And there's no Scriptural expression of "God the Son" nor the "God the Holy Spirit".

"Son of God," and "God the Son" are the same thing. They express (from the biblical Hebraic perspective) the same concept. "Son of God" is an expression that demonstrates equality with God. It is not same expression as "sons of God" which we are, on a lesser level.

[Smalcald]

Hi Unico,

What do you believe about Jesus Christ? Is Christ God or something less?