SDAinFLA Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 Sorry about that Dr. Luke. I don't see how. For example, I've had some operations that would have been quite painful if I hadn't been put out. I don't remember a thing. So if punishment has any meaning, it has to be consciously experienced. No one knows they're being punished once they go to sleep, so what's the point? If someone is given the death penalty by electrocution...is it not punishment because they die? Revelation14:11 - is figurative language (as alot of Revelation is). In order to understand some scriptures in Revelation you have to understand where John the revelator is coming from. If you would like to look at these scriptures we can definetely do so. Thank you!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.88 Content Count: 43,795 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 11,243 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 And Ive spoken to many many atheists who view non existence as a blessing, not punishment. So electrocution would merely be a relief to them, not punishment. The bible tells us over and over again that punishment is eternal. Jesus said it. The bible says it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDAinFLA Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 What scriprtures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDAinFLA Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 2thpoint, Now, I understand that the book of revelation has 404 verses in it. About 278 of those verses are referring to Old Testament scriptures. So when reading Revelation, it is wise to 1st understand the OT which will assist us in reading the NT. Revelation 14:11 says this - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." I believe this to be a quote from Isaiah 34:10 and Isaiah says, in regards to the burning condition of the land - "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." Even though the fire shall not be quenched day or night notice what is happening in this same place - "There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate." Isaiah 34:15 Can you explain to me how is it that these birds are nesting there when this place is burning forever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
book_wirm Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 ...hell is the common grave of mankind... Sometimes. And yet other times it is depicted as being a place with unquenchable fire. Let the context dictate the usage. Have we come to a contradiction in how hell is characterized by the Bible? Coleen did also refer to scripture in her (?) argument. No contradiction at all. I too referred to scripture to support that at times hell is referrencing a specific place of fire and torment. Mark 9:43-44 & Luke 16:228). It is irresponsible interpreting to apply a word's usage in one (or a few) passages to every time the word is used. Let the context dictate the usage. In Christ, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
book_wirm Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 I believe worm brought up an interesting point. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) so if you believe that the dead are still conscious then you probably would be inclined to beleive in eternal torture. However, I currently believe that the dead are unconscious... Please refer to the rich man and Lazarus. Along with Abraham, all are quite consious well after their first death. And what comfort does Christ's comment to the thief on the cross bring if by it he only means that they will "sleep". He says today you shall be with me in paradise. If they are not conscious then how is it paradise? In Christ, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDAinFLA Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2006 Thanks for the comments worm...your comments are great, however I really want to deal with the issue I had commented about prior to your comment. You can easily get into a talespin trying to reply to several people at one time. However, I dont' want you to think that I am putting you off or that I am not able to answer the question...I just want to deal with the conversation that 2thpoint's and myself are having...If you would like to comment on that then please do. Thanks!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 11, 2006 God has transcended time and space to get the message across. He laid aside His robes of Glory and clothed Himself in your flesh. He in essence became His Creation. All this for your sin. He did not have to do this. Yet you were worth it. He Loved you with an Agape Love. Thank you, Dave. I do know why God is good and loving. What I am asking though is What makes God not cruel in sending people to eternal torture--for any reason? Many never hear the Gospel and many who do hear it are never given a solid understanding of it, never know agape love because all they hear is admonitions of eternal damnation--because they live complicated and/or confused lives, often through no real fault of their own, they will suffer eternally. How will those who make it to the kingdom enjoy it knowing others are burning in hell? (as raised by another poster here) Why must our our fate be polarized between two extreme forms of eternal life--one in bliss and the other in torment? Who now lays charge at Gods feet that it is unjust to punish the wicked? What about the man who in deed is as righteous as Noah before the flood but was raised a Hindu? I would be slow to call him wicked and would say he deserves better than eternal torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 11, 2006 And Ive spoken to many many atheists who view non existence as a blessing, not punishment. So electrocution would merely be a relief to them, not punishment. The bible tells us over and over again that punishment is eternal. Jesus said it. The bible says it. Many resolve the issue we are wrestling with using the "free will" argument. If an atheist wants to choose nonexistence over being with our Father in Heaven, let him, I say. Wouldn't that be his "free" choice. Again, no rational person would "freely" choose eternal torment, no matter what they say. I know the Bible says punishment is eternal. I'm trying to figure out what makes it just, good, or loving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted February 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted February 11, 2006 God was loving enough to give us a choice. God doesn't send anyone to hell. Some of us simply choose to decline God's offer of salvation. I would venture to say that pride is the single most dangerous sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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