Deserving Eternal Torture/Torment

[CarolineS]

When Jesus spoke of "their worm dying not" He was quoting Isaiah 66:24. The word used for "worm" actually denoted a particular kind of worm, called a scarlet worm.

1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

2) worm, maggot

a) worm, grub

b) the worm "coccus ilicis"

++++

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might "bring many sons unto glory" ("#Heb 2:10")! He died for us, that we might live through him!

What is being spoken of here is implicit in the imagery Jesus used. He used something His audience would be particularly conversant with, and they would recognize that He was thus claiming to be the Messiah, One who gives life by giving His life.

Clio

Clio,

Amazing! That is so cool. I have never heard that before. Thanks for sharing!

In Christ,

CarolineW

[CarolineS]

When Jesus spoke of "their worm dying not" He was quoting Isaiah 66:24. The word used for "worm" actually denoted a particular kind of worm, called a scarlet worm.

1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

2) worm, maggot

a) worm, grub

b) the worm "coccus ilicis"

++++

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might "bring many sons unto glory" ("#Heb 2:10")! He died for us, that we might live through him!

What is being spoken of here is implicit in the imagery Jesus used. He used something His audience would be particularly conversant with, and they would recognize that He was thus claiming to be the Messiah, One who gives life by giving His life.

Clio

Clio,

Amazing! That is so cool. I have never heard that before. Thanks for sharing!

In Christ,

CarolineW

oops, wrong key.

It's CarolineS

[CarolineS]

In using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to try to prove anything about hell and the eventuality of those who go down into death one must remember first of all that it is a

[Honest Heart]

2thepoint,

This account sits right in the middle of the other parables. Jesus only 'named' Lazarus. The other name was 'a certain rich man'. Jesus gave no reason why Lazarus was carried by the Angels to Abrahams bosom, or the rich man 'being in torments in hades', only that Lazarus was poor and in ill health and that the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously, and later Abraham tells the rich man that 'in his lifetime he recieved his good things and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented". If you would look at what I wrote without prejudice you would see that this it supportive and makes sense. Niether one is shown doing good or evil to deserve what was given them. I don't see what you are talking about when you say good and evil are everything, at least not stated here. But I do agree that in the overall picture it is.

About Abraham telling the rich man that his brothers would have to believe Moses and the Prophets I believe I mentioned something very like that.

You have takem my statement, "it seems rather obvious" out of context. That is not nice. I also stated," In as much as our Lord doesn

[Openly Curious]

Lately, I've been taking a closer look at some of the tenets of our faith.

I'd like to examine the notion that we as sinners are deserving of eternal torture. What scriptures contain this idea? What is your interpretation of that scripture? Why do we deserve to be tortured for eternity?

Copper Scroll

If we want to examine this notion do you believe that there is factually and literally an eternal torture for the sinners. For it is only a notion on your part I see.

Your post suggest that we as human beings got some how caught up in the middle and are innocent from the sins of Adam and Eve in the garden.

Well Adam and Eve created the first sin I agree and death passed upon all men as a result. By one man's offense we all inherited (deserving or not) from our earthly father Adam judgment and condemnation.

Not every one thank God will choose to be tortured for eternity for God made a way of escape for us. There are those who will choose life by accepting the free gift of eternal life that my Heavenly Father has provided through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ who shed His blood for the atonement of mankind. We can be brought into the family of God in heaven not earth as we are adopted into the royal family the King of Kings and Lord of lords can be our Father now and we receive His inheritance with all the promises and blessings that come to us as a result (Ephesians 1:3-14). Just the same way as we did when we inherited them from our earthly father Adam which the whole human race decended from in the beginning. So those who do not accept what God the Father has done for the human race will be deserving of eternal torture.

Now for those scriptures:

Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 5:12-21 - "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned For until the law sin was in the world but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, WHO IS THE FIGURE OF HIM THAT WAS TO COME" But not as the Offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead much more the grace of God and the gift by grace which is by one man Jesus Christ hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned so is the gift for the Judgment was by one to condemnation but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by ones man's disobedience many were made sinners so by the "Obedience" of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Well Copper Scroll you might feel like a host of others in this world we live in, that it wasn't fair that everybody deserves eternal torture for another man's sin and I even in the past as a sinner thought the same thing a time or two. But even though we inherited eternal torture from Adam's sin. It did not excuse my own sin against God that I committed in this life. We were the victims of anothers crime weren't we and were unjustified.

But God rightened the wrong didn't he through his only begotten Son's Obedience to the Heavenly Father's will as Jesus Christ willingly subjected his self to the sufferings of the cross and He was innocent like the decendant of ole Adam. Jesus was the victim of "OUR PERSONAL SINS NOT JUST ADAM'S SIN BUT OURS" It doesn't seem fair nor deserving but Jesus suffered the cross for my sins so that I could be JUSTIFIED as the wrong from the beginning was made right through the blood of my Saviour. Jesus indeed did righten the wrong what was unjustified He justified.

So those in this world who do not accept Christ sacrifice do indeed deserve eternal torture because God did provide the spotless lamb and made a way for everyone ever born into this world to be saved from that eternal torture. You have a choice in this life and it's left to each individual to make and that choice is to either make heaven their eternal home or make hell their eternal home the place of eternal torture.

Again Copper Scroll that was the "Promise" in the scroll/word that was given to all the nations of the earth.

Openly Curious

Edited February 18, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

I understand why hell must be eternal, but why does an individual have to stay there and be tormented forever. Can a person just die there and just be nonexistent? I suppose nonexistence too is out of God's presence.

My opinion is that annihilation (non-existence) denies justice. In other words, what justice is there in making an unrepentant sinner disappear?

Another poster argues that we all want to live--we all avoid death. We consider wanting to die a madness.

And if punishment is not eternal, how can we be sure heavenly bliss is eternal? We can't have eternal life for one group but not the other, or there would have been no point at all to the trials of life on earth. If we get eternal rewards for good deeds, then there must be eternal 'rewards' for bad deeds. They are two sides of the same coin.

What binds these two together? Why and how does what happens with one affect the other?

What is it about faith that is saving? What quality does faith have and knowledge not have?

Also, God is holy but was still able to reveal himself to sinners (prophets). Since they know God (by "sight") are they not saved?

Hebrews 11:1

2 Corinthians 5:7

Romans 8:24-25

Colossians 1:15-20

1 John 2:22

1 John 5:12-13

John 3:18

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

Romans 4:3

(Genesis 15:5-6

Hope that helps

Very thorough. Thank you.

But I'm not sure if answers the first question I had: What does faith have over knowledge? What is it about faith that is salvific? What makes knowledge not salvific? Perhaps, the Bible doesn't answer this. I don't know. The more central question is Why wouldn't God just reveal himself to all (as he did for the prophets) so there wouldn't be all of this confusion that only works to help people suffer eternally?

Hello,

Faith and trust takes an act of your freewill. Just simply having the knowledge of what you have learned about the things of God isn't enough although you may feel that it would be sufficient for you personally. Let me give you an example one person believes this about God another believes that about God. For we have all heard and learned different things about God within our knowledge but we do not always agree with one another on doctrine. But having differences of opinions doesn't take an act of our will. It is just a battle of intellect that goes on.

It is the lack of faith and trust in refusing to just simply accept what God did for fallen humanity that causes the confusion because the intellect don't want to receive by faith what they don't understand by knowledge. But faith requires action on your part if you want to obtain salvation through faith by grace are ye saved.

Faith is much bigger than your intellect. Faith believes that it is true, even though you have never seen it with your eyes, or you have never touched it with your hands, yet faith says it is absolutely mine. One does not have to understand in their intellect everything about God or have all the "Why" questions we have answered to accept by faith that Jesus died for their sins.

And it's by that faith in that fact alone that determines our eternal destiny. Making that choice by faith after we have heard the gospel being preached. In the which God chose the foolishness of preaching as the method to reach the lost. I do not understand why he did it either but He did nevertheless. God chose it to confound the wise (that includes our intellect) that would try to out reason an all knowing and all wise God who is the creator of all that we see and have.

So faith demands a response from us unto what God the Father did for humanity.

Openly Curious

Edited February 18, 2006 by Openly Curious

[CarolineS]

In using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to try to prove anything about hell and the eventuality of those who go down into death one must remember first of all that it is a

[Openly Curious]

What is the good news of the gospel? The good news of the gospel to me as a former sinner that was lost is that I wouldn't have to face the judgment of God. That I was free, I was saved. Free from what and saved from what? I was saved from a devil's hell and saved from my sins that was sending me there. That was the good news of the gospel to a wretch like me.

That is the good news we ought to be about doing and giving out. If we didn't get saved from eternal torture, God's judgment and the condemnation that passed upon all men through Adam. Then why in the world did Jesus have to come into this world to start with and die on the old rugged cross for. What did we get saved from if our sins wasn't going to send us into hell's flames?

Hell is real. Hell is also a literal place of eternal torture.

Isaiah 5:14-24 - "hell hath enlarged herself"

Proverbs 27:20 - "hell and destruction are never full"

there is countless numbers that wind up their every hour, every minute and every second of every day that is passing us by hell is never full and it is being enlarged as we speak because of the lack in making the right decisions for Christ while they had a chance in this life.

Deut. 32:22; Job 26:6; Psalms 9:17; 55:15;

There are countless passages about hell within the pages of God's Word. For one to deny hell's existence is to be foolish.

One can argue over and over again and thus ignore this place called hell. Or they can take heed as the wise man who built his house on the rock. It is a wise thing to take this place serious even if you don't believe the torture, the worm that dieth or then part about the eternal flames that are unquenchable etc., as being true or not true. Why would one want to gamble and take that chance on the premises they don't believe it to be true. That is a very foolish gamble to take.

Openly Curious

[SDAinFLA]

Thanks Butero. Very good post.

This belief of the sinners living inside the earth is very interesting to me. I am enjoying this study greatly.

But my question is this...The Bible says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14:11 and then it says "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10

But how can the wicked be in the earth "...for there shall be no night there." Revelation 21:25

Edited February 18, 2006 by SDAinFLA

[Honest Heart]

Hello CarolynS,

You made some very good comments on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I quite agree with you in what you said and in fact thing that it does have that application. I also agree with your final statement about too much argueing amoung ourselves. Shalome and Happy sabbath to you as well.

Butero,

I have to disagree with you on your views. If the parable had said anything about the rich man being a sinner and Lazarus being righteous it would be different, but as it is it doesn't.

As far as the idea of having to be punished for sin; nonexistance IS punishment don't you think? When God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit, in that day he would surely DIE, not go to hell and suffer eternal torment. The Bible also says that the; 'soul that is sinning it itself shall die'. Also it says; 'the living know that they will DIE, but the DEAD KNOW NOTHING AT ALL'and, 'do all that your hand finds to do because in the GRAVE there is nothing, no knowledge, no work, no wisdom, NOTHING. Also the words translated as HELL mean the GRAVE. And when people died in the Bible they are said to be sleeping with their fathers.

When we look at something else in the Bible that seems to contradict itself we must look to see what the case may be, because the Bible is in complete harmony. The fact is that Revelations was written in symbols and not all is to be taken literally. The lake of fire represents eternal destruction and the smoke of their torment that ascends forever shows that its worthyness of complete destruction as well as the destruction itself will never be forgotten. The last thing to be thrown into the L.O.F. is DEATH AND HADES, showing a complete end of both as all mankind will be in complete harmony with God and there will never be a need for either again as the 'tent of God will be with mankind'.

Peace to you all. I'll be gone for the next 5 days, but will try to catch up when I return.