The Law, Sin, the Commandments and serving Christ.

[Smalcald]

I would like to have a discussion about the law, sin and how the Ten Commandments relate to following Christ. First we know that there are different commandments from God contained in the Old Testament. The ritual laws, the moral law, we also know that Christ fulfilled the Law with His sacrifice. However He told us that to love Him meant to being obedient to Him, when asked about behavior about being obedient to Him, He often referenced what we refer to as the Ten Commandments. Are the Ten Commandments the summation of the moral law? If not what is added to them, or taken away. How does sin relate to the law if at all, and how do we know we are sinning if we have no defined law from God?

Why do we talk about the Ten Commandments at all if they are not needed for our lives?

[CarolineS]

Smalcald,

You will find that this topic has been discussed many times here. No one can agree that the Ten Commandments are eternal and will stand until Christ returns.

We need God's eternal law to show us what sin is. His law is like a mirror that we look at and see how filthy we are. So the law points us to the need for a savior. The only way to be clean again is through the blood of Jesus. The law points us to the cross.

When we come to Jesus and truely repent and accept Him as Lord of our life, we experience His mercy and grace. We are so grateful and full of love for Christ that we want to obey Him to show our love for Him. We do this by keeping His Commandments. Love, faith and grace lead to obedience.

Many say we are not under the law, we are under grace. We are saved by grace. Then Jesus writes His law in our mind and heart. Grace is God's mercy and power that lead us to obey His laws. If we do away with the law, we do away with sin. If you do away with sin, you don't need a savior.

Adam and Eve lost the garden due to disobedience. Disobedience is a form of rebellion. When we do not obey God's Law, we are rebelling against God. And I don't think rebellion and sin are allowed in heaven.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Smalcald]

Thanks Caroline. That is basically what I believe. But I think we need to know what "law" we are talking about? If not the Ten Commandments than what?

Obviously we can all agree that we don't need to show our obedience to Christ by being Kosher or following the commands for the Jewish people of the Old Testament described in Leviticus for example, the ritual laws. I think we all see that following the law does not save us, cannot save us, and I don't want to get into an argument about that, I think as Christians we all agree on that.

But, to really follow Christ to seek Him with our whole heart, to obey as best as we can, I would think we would want to be clear on what exactly that means in our day to day lives, how to do that?

I don't think it is enough to say well we know what sin is when we see it, I would say that in today

[gypc]

Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

There are 3 Laws mentioned in this passage.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ v2

The Law of sin and death v2

The Law of God v3/v4

[Smalcald]

Hi Gypc

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ v2

The Law of sin and death v2

The Law of God v3/v4

Okay for each of these, what do they mean for Christian obedience to Christ? How do we live as Christians so as to show our love of Christ, specifically, what does the Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ mean for me as far as how I should show that in my life?

How do these relate to Paul's specific instructions in Galatians below?

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ

[gypc]

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ

[Smalcald]

Well that is all good and every Christian believes that.

But it does not answer the question, what is the law, what is sin? Which laws, what sin, what is sin in the first place? Do the ten commandments matter at all, or are they just a relic for reference of what we used to have to worry about? How can we repent if we don't know if we need to repent?

Like I said, we all already agree that we cannot keep the law, that we are all sinful and Christ covers those sins, but that is not what my question was about.

[gypc]

Well that is all good and every Christian believes that.

But it does not answer the question, what is the law, what is sin? Which laws, what sin, what is sin in the first place? Do the ten commandments matter at all, or are they just a relic for reference of what we used to have to worry about? How can we repent if we don't know if we need to repent?

Like I said, we all already agree that we cannot keep the law, that we are all sinful and Christ covers those sins, but that is not what my question was about.

When God gave the ten commandments, he knew it was impossible for man to keep them. So there was a provision..the blood sacrifices.......which is the type and shadow of Christ, the true spotless Lamb of God. The commandments is God's standard.......if a person breaks one, they are seperated from God and on their way to death and hell. Since the standard is so high, the sacrifice must be even greater.

So the law was given to Moses......but still......no one could keep the whole law. Thanks be to Jesus Christ who did not do away with the law but fulfilled it.

In the law, we are told that all men must be circumcised.......now under grace we all must be circumcised but this circumcision is circumcision of the heart.

We are now under grace and not under law. This does not mean we break the ten commandments, it means the law is no longer our provision. But now Christ is our provision.

If we break one the commandments, we sin but Christ paid the price for our sin.

Romans 6:15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is the reality of the children of God.....but in chapter 7, Paul found another law at work....the law of sin and death. In chapter 8 he shows us the most powerful law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Sin is sin...since the beginning until now.

1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Well that is all good and every Christian believes that.

The sad fact of the matter is, that most christians do not truely believe this. Now many are under man made laws....have you ever been told if ya have a problem, find a scripture that is about your problem, quote it 3 times a day until your problem is gone and the blessing is manifested? Sounds good, but it is the method of man. Many in the church today have left the cross to find some new revelation that, they say, the early church didn't know.

A man was having problems with sin so he came up with something called "generational curses". He said even though your saved, now you must search out all the sins your family has ever done and come against them. This is a lie and he is trying to add something else to the cross of Christ. Because of the blood, we are redeemed from the curse.

How about the giving law...........give my ministry $1000. and God will give ya $10,000. This is nothing more than a scam.

Copeland and Hagin teach that the cross was not enough......"if it were, the two thieves could have paid your price, Jesus had to be tortured in hell" This is another lie that cannot be found in the Bible but if we ask them, they would say it's a "New revelation"

What Paul taught us is if we trust in the simplicity of the cross, is Rom8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no other method and if we try to follow one, we will make the cross of Christ of none effect.

[Micah68]

Jesus never taught anything whatsoever saying that the law is over. He said, I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He said, Every jot and tittle must be fulfilled. He taught that not only do you have to keep the commandments but you must take them a step higher. Don't just be content with 'Thou shalt not commit adultery,' but don't even look at someone with adultery in your eyes. In other words, He was showing you have to obey the spirit of the law. Get rid of the adultery in your heart. Get rid of the hatred in your heart because from the heart are the issues of life. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of a person's walk with God. They are the first step. Jesus takes us to a whole new level and brings us into a close, personal relationship with God and shows us how we can live like Him.

Some references that Jesus made to the commandments: Mt 5:19; Mt 19:17; Mt 22:37-40; Mk 10:17-19; Mk 12:28-31; Lk 18:18-20; Jo 14:15, 21 There are more in John. The refererences in John give you the idea that Jesus Himself gave commandments. If you search them out, you will find out some things about how to live a Christian life.

[Pilgrim7]

Smalcald,

Praise God for a very honest and sincere question. I see that you really want to serve and please God, and I beileve the Spirit has really already shown you the answer to the question.

Many true things have been said here, but sometimes the understanding needs to be clarified. The Ten Commandments were given to identify sin, or transgression against God. They were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant over which the presence of God dwelt. This should tell you something about how God regards them. Also in the Ark were Aaron's rod that budded and the golden pot of manna that was miraculously preserved. From the mercy seat God forgave the sins of the people when they confessed them and killed the lamb representing Jesus.

Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant (Ten Commandments);

9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

What was in the Ark was the essence of God's kingdom. The 'Tables of Testimony' represented God's justice or His definition of sin. Aaron's rod that budded shows the love God who gives life to those who are 'dead in tresspasses and sin. The Manna is representative of Jesus 'who is the bread of life' come down from heaven and who dwells in the believer through faith. From the 'mercy' seat above the Ark God forgave the transgression of His law when repentant sinners confessed their sins and killed the lamb, symbolic that their sins had been transfered to Jesus and He would die for those sins.

As long as the world remains, the Ten Commandments remain inorder to identify sin. How else could on know they were a sinner and repent if they had no way of knowing what sin is. In order to be forgiven one must know what sin is so he can confess it and be forgiven. If he doesn't know, then he can't confess. If he can't confess, he cannot be forgiven. Beyond this he is to give up sin and come into obedience.

The Ten Commandments were given by Jesus who is the WORD OF GOD, who is God. Anything done by God is done by all three persons of the Godhead. Jesus was above the mercy seat along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Ten Commandments are the Commandments of Jesus just as all His words on earth were His commands.

One has said that God gave the commandments knowing that we couldn't keep them. True, he knew we couldn't keep then in our carnal nature. This is the reason that He gives us His Holy Spirit, to enable us to keep them. You see in the 'New Covenant', the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the heart of the believer and as the Scriptures say, 'He writes the law of God in the heart' or gives the believer a love for His law.

Here is God's definition of the New Covenant, this is Salvation by grace through faith:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put MY LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You see the New Covenant does not do away with the law, it just changes where the Law is written. In the old Covenant the law was written on stone, in the New Covenant the law is written in the believers heart so that he will love the Law of God.

God bless,

Dennis