Prophecy

[felix]

QUOTE

The Old Testament Prophets were different from the NT prophets

the division of the Bible into separate series of books is a hellenistic concept which I reject.

The use of the word "testament" also implies a theological viewpoint which is inconsistant with the Bible. There is only a newer "covenant" and it is made with Israel.

The implication that something of the character of prophets and prophecy has changed by virtue of the gospel going into all the nations is also a concept which I reject

Yod, today...prophets do not need to be named nor must they be 100% infalliable.

but God is.

If they claim to speak for Him, they'd better be 100% accurate.

The prophets under the Old Covenant are different from the prophets under the New Covenant which is today. It's not obvious but it is there. (With the following I'm not implying either a yes or a no but ask yourself these questions) Do we still live by the Law of the old Covenant? Do we still need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins?

Many more questions but it is very obvious that the old covenant and the new covenant are very different livings. The old covenant was for physical Israel and the new covenant is also for Israel. But it is not for a physical Israel but a spiritual Israel...the Body of Christ, the Church. Yod, the prophet you are looking for is the OC (Old Covenant) prophet. There is no such thing just like there is no such thing as a priest who must enter the tabernacle every year into the Holiest of Holies. When one comes and acts like an OC prophet then something is clearly wrong. NO ONE SHOULD CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR GOD. However, this was what the OC prophets had the authority to do. The prophet today however is LEAD by God in spirit by the Holy Spirit. If one should prophesy it is done in their own words and not necessarily in "thus saith the Lord". One who acts like an OC prophet today is extremely questionable.

in that they were infalliable in their speaking. There Words made up the Bible. Today the prophets Words are not on the same level as the bible in that it can add or take away from the Word.

not exactly sure what you mean by that...but prophecy, ESPECIALLY if it is to foretell of coming events, is either the Word of God or witchcraft from a medium.

Concerning foretelling of coming events...Prophecy can be personal words of prophecy to individuals. It can be very specific such as refering to a date when you will receive something. Obviously such a personal word cannot be found in the Word of God however, God has used this servant to speak His (the Lord's) word to this individual.

"Everything we need to know is in the bible..." I touched on this matter in some thread here. Can't remember where...i'll put it here when i find it.

I didn't say that.

I said if you want to know the future...all you need to know is in the Bible.

It seems you can't get over prophecy meaning foretelling of events to come. Or more specifically the miraculous aspect of prophecy...It is very edifying when a brother comes to me while I'm in a tough situation and he shares what the Lord has revealed to him regarding my situation. Though this brother does not know my situation or much about me he is able to give me a word that hits me very specifically. When I wasn't able to share or even know what I was going through it was very edifying for someone else to know and speak words that gave me hope, strength and encouragement.

Yod, if you want to discuss this further please PM me. As I have already mentioned my feelings about this fellowship I would just like to see where you stand.

[Guest yod]

The prophets under the Old Covenant are different from the prophets under the New Covenant which is today. It's not obvious but it is there.

really? Where?

Do we still live by the Law of the old Covenant? Do we still need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins?

I'll answer with a question.

Is the Law now void?

Do we not need blood atonement for our sins?

But it is not for a physical Israel but a spiritual Israel...the Body of Christ, the Church.

Sorry but I can not agree with something that contradicts the logos. The "church" as a separate entity of Israel is a man-made construct. It is still the new covenant given to Israel...but gentiles can be included now.

Yod, the prophet you are looking for is the OC (Old Covenant) prophet.

And again...I reject any notion of separation of God's Word just because it happened in the 2nd Century Greece. There is ONE BOOK and it is consistant from start to finish.

There is no such thing just like there is no such thing as a priest who must enter the tabernacle every year into the Holiest of Holies.

ah but there is!

Yeshua has done it once for all. Prophecy is not about atonement though.

When one comes and acts like an OC prophet then something is clearly wrong. NO ONE SHOULD CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR GOD. However, this was what the OC prophets had the authority to do. The prophet today however is LEAD by God in spirit by the Holy Spirit. If one should prophesy it is done in their own words and not necessarily in "thus saith the Lord". One who acts like an OC prophet today is extremely questionable.

a prophet either represents God to the people or he is not a prophet. It's that simple, bro.

Can God lie? Does He make mistakes when He says something?

It seems you can't get over prophecy meaning foretelling of events to come.

Dang. Would you mind reading my posts?

I am addressing the modern-church definition of prophets and prophecy as being skewed...because that is what most of the false prophets are doing. Foretelling events. With enough lucky guesses they are right about 5% of the time.

An actual fortune teller has a better record than the Elijah List...and are just as vague.

Or more specifically the miraculous aspect of prophecy...It is very edifying when a brother comes to me while I'm in a tough situation and he shares what the Lord has revealed to him regarding my situation. Though this brother does not know my situation or much about me he is able to give me a word that hits me very specifically. When I wasn't able to share or even know what I was going through it was very edifying for someone else to know and speak words that gave me hope, strength and encouragement.

This could just as easily be called "exhortation, encouragement, word-of-knowledge".....or it could be simply "wisdom". It could be that he says one thing but you hear something else. That is not necessarily prophecy though I tend to think this is more like what prophecy looks like.

Yod, if you want to discuss this further please PM me. As I have already mentioned my feelings about this fellowship I would just like to see where you stand.

Why?

Then no one else would be able to join the discussion. I'd prefer that our comments be public.

Just so everyone else understands...

I consider us to be brothers looking at different sides of the same thing. There is no acrimony on my part though it might seem that way with my to-the-point answers.

But I'm enjoying the discussion.

[branchesofHim]

Indeed.

The Word of God (JESUS CHRIST) is the Purpose of Prophecy.

Peace.

[nebula]

The prophets under the Old Covenant are different from the prophets under the New Covenant which is today. It's not obvious but it is there.

How so?

Remember the prophets mentioned in Acts?

There was one who prophecied about Paul being bound if he went to Rome.

There were other prophets telling of a famine that would hit Jerusalem, so the Churches collected an offering for them ahead of time.

How is this different?

Do we still live by the Law of the old Covenant? Do we still need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins?

I don't understand what this has to do with prophets and prophecying.

[felix]

My purpose in mentioning "Do we still live by the Law of the old Covenant? Do we still need to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins?" was to attempt to convey how the life under the Old Covenant is different from the life under the New Covenant.

To straighten somethings out first...Jesus's blood DID NOT ATONE our sins...Atonement means to just cover up. Jesus TOOk away our sins. It is very obvious to us that we do not live the same way as they did under the Old Covenant. When Jesus came and fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Covenant there was no longer the same Covenant but a new one. THIS WAS FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD for all those who would believe INTO CHRIST.

We are Spiritual Israel. That is how the New Covenant includes us.

I was trying to convey what was obvious.....

In the OT there were priests who would have to go yearly into the holy of holies for our sins.

Now in the NT (today) we have one high-priest (Jesus Christ) in which we can go to in our spirit (which is the holy of holies now for Jesus indwells now our spirit...1 Cor 6:17).

In the OT they had to sacrifice an animal only to atone for sins (cover up).

Now in the NT the blood from Christ (the Lamb) completely takes away our sin.

In the OT they lived by the law.

Now in the NT we live by the law of grace which doesn't void the law but frees us from it.

In the OT the Spirit of God did not yet indwell man so there was no Gift of the Holy Spirit. The prophet in those days spoke directly from the Spirit of God thus there was the authority to say "Thus saith the Lord".

Now in the NT the Spirit of God indwells all those who believe. And each one is given a gift according to the Spirit's measure. But because we are one in spirit with the Lord there is no need for us to say "Thus saith the Lord". The Lord is one with our spirit...He is not outside of us.

Brothers and sisters, the prophets of the Old Testament are no longer here. Try looking for one and you will either fail or find a false one. It's hard for me to explain but hopefully I will get to this in a better way soon.

But you see...it's not easy to understand just like brothers and sisters now do not understand why the ten commandments still apply when we are under the law of grace or vice versa...they don't understand why they are allowed to eat pork when the Law says you can't. We understand how this works but it is not easy explaining to one who doesn't. This is what i'm dealing with now so offer me much grace.

And I remember...I talked about this matter before in http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=35082&st=20

The Spirit of Truth guide you.

Yod, if you want to discuss this further please PM me. As I have already mentioned my feelings about this fellowship I would just like to see where you stand.

Why?

Then no one else would be able to join the discussion. I'd prefer that our comments be public.

Just so everyone else understands...

I consider us to be brothers looking at different sides of the same thing. There is no acrimony on my part though it might seem that way with my to-the-point answers.

But I'm enjoying the discussion.

The reason I would prefer that this be done through PM is so that it doesn't mess up this thread as I'm going to post other lessons I'm receiving from brother Job. It's just hard to keep things organized...as it is this really starting to tangent off to something else. If you are so concerned about keeping public appearances we could continue this in another public thread if you do not wish to do it through PM.

Edited March 10, 2006 by felix

[Guest yod]

To straighten somethings out first...Jesus's blood DID NOT ATONE our sins...

Romans 5:10-12

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

We are Spiritual Israel. That is how the New Covenant includes us.

The way it is applied makes all the difference in the world, bro. What do you mean by that? There is no reference to spiritual Israel in the Bible. This is a hellenistic concept.

There is the "Israel of God" mentioned in Galatians...but that is not primarily spiritual.

In the OT there were priests who would have to go yearly into the holy of holies for our sins.

Now in the NT (today) we have one high-priest (Jesus Christ) in which we can go to in our spirit (which is the holy of holies now for Jesus indwells now our spirit...1 Cor 6:17).

Huh? Are you saying that "our" spirit is the Holy of Holies?

In the OT they had to sacrifice an animal only to atone for sins (cover up).

Now in the NT the blood from Christ (the Lamb) completely takes away our sin.

His blood "covers" it. The word for cover is "kippurah" or "atonement"

In the OT they lived by the law.

Now in the NT we live by the law of grace which doesn't void the law but frees us from it.

we are free from the ultimate penalty of sin which is death. The Law is still as real as gravity. What you sow, you shall reap...

I explain it in much further detail here:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=9719&hl=

Brothers and sisters, the prophets of the Old Testament are no longer here.

I respectfully disagree. Yes, Isaiah and Daniel died a long time ago but prophecy didn't die with them. As I was having a nice conversation with our dear brother EricH, I stated that I believe all saints have the potential of prophecying....should the Lord decide He wants to say something through us to someone at any given time. We may not even realize it when we do it.

But there are no mistakes when God speaks.

But you see...it's not easy to understand just like brothers and sisters now do not understand why the ten commandments still apply when we are under the law of grace or vice versa...they don't understand why they are allowed to eat pork when the Law says you can't. We understand how this works but it is not easy explaining to one who doesn't. This is what i'm dealing with now so offer me much grace.

You get all the grace in the Universe, brother.

But those things aren't that hard to understand or explain.

Once you realize that we are trying to view a hebraic concept through Greco-Roman eyes, you'll find that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth and everything starts to make sense.

[felix]

Yod,

I think I wasn't clear or you misunderstood what I was trying to explain.

There were OT prophets in the past...now there are NT prophets today. That was what I was trying to illustrate with my comparison of the OT and the NT.

But you see...it's not easy to understand just like brothers and sisters now do not understand why the ten commandments still apply when we are under the law of grace or vice versa...they don't understand why they are allowed to eat pork when the Law says you can't. We understand how this works but it is not easy explaining to one who doesn't. This is what i'm dealing with now so offer me much grace.

You get all the grace in the Universe, brother.

But those things aren't that hard to understand or explain.

Once you realize that we are trying to view a hebraic concept through Greco-Roman eyes, you'll find that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth and everything starts to make sense.

I didn't mean me brother. I understand why the ten commandments still apply when we are under grace and why we can still eat pork when the Law says we can't. I understand this. I'm trying to use this as an example of what I'm dealing with in regards to those who do not see that the OT prophet is different from the NT prophet.

So you understand why the 10 commandments apply and why we can still eat pork right? Well, explain this to someone who doesn't understand that. It's not that straightforward all the time. It's not clear cut all the time either. This is JUST an example. This is what I'm dealing with when people do not see that the OT prophets are different from the NT prophets.

And you still chose not to PM me....

Edited March 10, 2006 by felix

[Guest yod]

This is not really related, but the sun DOES revolve around the earth, and according to both scripture and science. Both Newtonian and Einsteinian relativity say that it is correct to say that the sun revolves around the earth. which is correct, because I have never observed teh earth revolve around the sun, but I have seen the sun rise and set every day.

that explains a lot....

[felix]

Hello dear brothers and sisters,

Continuing on the "Meaning of Prophecy" here is the second excerpt from Brother Job on the first lesson. Before we begin I need to mention the following...

For the sake of keeping this thread's integrity (or keeping it from going off topic, getting messy, disorganized etc), I will be responding to your comments to me through PM. As a favor I ask you would do the same if someone makes a comment refering to your post. Questions, on the otherhand, can be answered in public but when there is a disagreement that requires further discussion it should be reverted to PMing. Don't let pride or keeping up with public appearances get in the way. Are we after the truth or after public appearances?

The reason for this is because I had planned to post on-going lessons on Prophecy from brother Job here. When several discussions are going at once within the same thread it makes this hard to follow. The main thing is to just stay on topic and when disagreements arise those should be taken into PMing. We know in our hearts when it is no longer concerning the topic at hand but when it's "winning the argument". These posts throw the thread off topic because a lot of it is ad hoc. In that situation, the original points of the topic are relegated to the back and each person is now just refering to each other's recent "counter" point.

I don't hold anyone here to follow this but I would prefer that this be done. But it's mostly what I will be doing. Thanks. You may or may not agree with anything here. But you must always yearn for truth and understanding. Lord jesus, grace us. Amen.

Prophecies - Old Testament Vs New Testament

The Old Testament reveals the salvation plan of God. The New Testament fulfills the salvation plan of God. The prophets of the Old Testament were the spokespersons of God for revealing the salvation plan of God. The prophets of the New Testament execute the salvation plan of God.

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John" (Matt.11:13).

In fact, the prophecies concerning the salvation plan of God came to an end with the ministry of John the Baptist who revealed Christ as the Lamb of God to the Israel. However, the Bible Prophecy concerning prophetic events continued to be revealed through Jesus Christ and through His apostles who wrote the Gospels and the Epistles. Since the salvation plan of God had already been revealed through the Old Testament prophets, Jesus as the Prophet did not make any fresh prophecy in this regard. However, He made prophecies concerning prophetic events that would take place. He spoke words of comfort and of promises. He also spoke words of condemnation against the Pharisees and Scribes, and condemned the sin. He also conveyed timely messages of God to Israel.

The Bible Prophecy concerning revelation of the salvation plan of God came to an end with the ministry of John the Baptist. Fulfillment of the salvation plan began with the birth of Christ. All the Old Testament prophecies concerning the ministry of Christ right from His birth to His ascension to God's right hand were fulfilled. The word of prophecy in Gen.3:15 concerning the seed of a woman was fulfilled with the birth of Christ as mentioned in Col.4:4. The word of prophecy in Ps.68:18 regarding Christ's ascension to God's right hand was fulfilled as per Mark 16:19. The Bible Prophecy concerning the salvation plan of God which had begun in the Book of Genesis was partly fulfilled at the Calvary. The remaining part of the Bible Prophecy concerning the final redemptive plan of God would be fulfilled after the second advent of Jesus Christ when those who would be alive and those who are dead in Christ would put on immortality (I Cor.15:51-58).

No prophet under the New Testament shall further add to the salvation plan of God which had been revealed once and for all under the Old Testament. Neither shall he add to nor shall he delete what the Old Testament prophets spoke. If he adds or takes away any of the words of prophecy spoken by the Old Testament prophets, he will be a lying prophet.

These days, some prophets claim to be end-time prophets and their claim is not scripturally correct. God has revealed all the truths to us in the Bible Prophecy which came to an end in the isle of Patmos when John received the special revelations from God. There are no such end-time truths to be revealed to such end-time prophets. Of course, in these last days, the New Testament prophets get revelations on the Bible Prophecy which had already been given to the Church. The New Testament prophets only interpret the Bible Prophecy and are not supposed to give any other prophecy which contradicts the Bible Prophecy. Through the revelations and visions received by them from the Holy Spirit, they only confirm the Bible Prophecy that takes place at the end-time. These so-called end-time prophets should not and cannot proclaim any message which is outside the written Word of God. Leaders of certain cults proclaim other ways of salvation than what the Old Testament prophets proclaimed. They are indeed false prophets.

The Bible Prophecy concerning prediction of future events which had begun in the Garden of Eden was finally revealed to John the apostle and prophet, when he was in the island of Patmos. The Book of Revelation was given to the Church through John as the last book of the Bible Prophecy concerning future events about the end of this world and about the final redemptive plan of God. Revelation is the book of consummation. In it, the divine program of redemption is brought to fruition. Although there are numerous prophecies in the Old Testament books, the Gospels and Epistles, Revelation is the only New Testament book that focuses primarily on prophetic events. This book is an unveiling of the character and program of God. It is also known as the Apocalypse, a transliteration of the word apocalypses, meaning unveiling. No prophet under the New Testament is supposed to add unto these things or take away from the words of the book of this prophecy ( Rev.22:18-19). The Bible Prophecy concerning prediction is still being fulfilled. Though many of such prophecies had been literally fulfilled before and during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, certain words of prophecies are yet to be fulfilled.

John the apostle and prophet did not prophesy on the salvation plan of God in the isle of Patmos. He only received a revelation of Christ Jesus and about the end-time events through visions given to him by the Holy Spirit. He recorded in the Revelation what the Holy Spirit commanded him to write to the churches and what he saw in the visions. However, the Old Testament prophets prophesied until John the Baptist. They prophesied during the reigns of the kings of Israel and Judah and during the Babylonian captivity of the Jews.

The Bible Prophecy contains words of divine comfort. Though many prophetic books under the Old Testament were directed toward the peoples of Israel and Judah, yet the same words of comfort are applicable to the Church, the spiritual Israel. For instance, let us read the words of comfort in the 54 th chapter of Isaiah. Though Isaiah spoke these words of comfort to the Israel, all these words of prophecy can be claimed by us under the New Covenant.

The Bible Prophecy also contains words of exhortation, words of condemnation of sin and of divine judgment on the disobedient and backsliding Israelites. We should not conclude that these words of warning and of condemnation are meant only for the then nations of Israel and Judah that existed during the Old Testament period, and not for us. The words of warning against idolatry and sins spoken by the prophets to the Israel and to the Gentile nations that existed during the Old Testament period still hold good even today for the whole world. What we do nowadays is pick up conveniently certain words of promises and of comfort but ignore the words of God's condemnation of and judgment on sin.

[Guest yod]

This is a discussion board, brother. If you want a monologue do a blog somewhere. Better still, just post everything you want to say and let the discussion begin.

Your entire premise is flawed.

Are you insisting that the reasons why should only be mentioned in a secret message to you?