Samson's death

[apothanein kerdos]

'apothanein kerdos'

Look, I'm not going to tip-toe around like everyone else. Stop treating us like we're idiots. We know you created this thread to continue the suicide discussion (which left off with Samson). At least be honest and don't treat us like idiots who can't see past your smoke screen.

Openly Curious

I am not treating anyone like an idiot. I started this thread to talk about Samson the topic was pretty simple and is not on the subject of suicide as the other thread was. But if Samson death was a heroic one or a failure and If you have any thing worth while to contribute it will be welcome. And yes Samson did come up in the other thread that was closed. I want to talk Samson if you do join in and stop all the accusations.

OC

It's not an accusation, it's very much a fact.

Regardless, as I said, it was obedience. His purpose was to act as a judge in Israel, and part of this was protecting Israel. By killing so many Philistines he was acting in what his calling was. There was no direct order; instead, it was the overall calling of what he was to do.

It doesn't make him a hero or a failure; it merely makes him someone that lived up to his purpose. And to one of the questions brought forth, yes, it is suicide. He took his life because he was miserable and wanted to die...he merely asked God to give him the strength to take out other people with him as well.

AK

Your accusation here are unfounded and unwarrented.

Then this then being your logic why is it when you live out your purpose in which God gave you to do. Why is it you must pray and ask God for your prayers and petitions to be answered. I mean seeing it is all a matter of obedience I guess you have no desires in which to approach God for you just obey him for that is fullfiling ones purpose. That only takes my hope away from me if this then is true you say. God never asked samson to do it so it wasn't God purpose for Him it was Samson desire and request from God it was not an act of obedience as God said he would give us the desires of our hearts. But in your way of seeing things as long as you are obeying your purpose or calling you don't need vindication from the things you may suffer being Christ servant yourself because it all about fullfilling your purpose. Do you not think God cares for the wrongs that others do unto you just because you are a servant of the Lord. Well he does and if not where's hope. You only send me back to the prayer room.

OC

It doesn't take away any hope. The purpose of prayer is to bring our wants and desires before God and to discover if they are on par with His Will for our lives. I can ask for a new car, but if it is not in His Will, I'm not going to get it. It is the same with Samson. He was asking God to give him the strength to complete his purpose in life. You keep saying, "God never said this so it wasn't what God wanted." That's horrible logic. That's saying that God isn't powerful and He is subject to only what He speaks and what man asks Him to do. God has become nothing more than a diving genie in this view.

The only thing I would question in your post is this idea that Samson was "miserable and wanted to die." Perhaps he did and perhaps he didn't. I don't even claim to know whether he wanted to die, or whether he wanted to make one last heroic stand, and his death was the consequence. I will say this however, I do not consider what he did to be suicide. If it were, that would mean God helped him kill himself because he couldn't have moved those columns in his own strength.

I don't know if you ever watch the show 24, but on a recent episode, the people were trapped in a building with nerve gas. To save the others, one man had to go out into the affected area to stop the spread of the gas. He knew he would die in doing so, but he did anyway. This man didn't want to die, it was just a consequence of his actions.

There are often stories of fire fighters rushing into a burning building to save people, knowing they faced almost certain death in doing so. To me they are heroes, and not committing suicide. I believe that was the case with Samson. He had no other way of taking out the Philisteans but by giving up his own life, and he was willing to do it.

In saying that, I again acknowledge this is speculation on my part, for the Bible doesn't say what Samson was thinking, only what he did. For instance, it doesn't say, "And Samson said unto God, life is not worth living like this, so I want you to help me kill myself. In exchange, I will take out the enemies of Isreal." It never says, so to claim to know his mind is mere speculation on anyone's part. The only thing we know is he wanted to avenge himself for his eyes as was pointed out. Beyond that, nobody knows.

No matter what, it's always going to be speculation, no matter which side we take. However, I'm willing to bet that after having his eyes plucked out, tortured, and left solely to be entertainment and laughed at...he couldn't have had much worth living for. That was the approach I was taking.

[Openly Curious]

Since God saw fit to put the story of Samson into the bible, I would think that Samson did God's bidding and demonstrated the lessons that God was teaching us. He was a hero.

All the way

Thanks for your response

OC

[Kabowd]

'apothanein kerdos'

Look, I'm not going to tip-toe around like everyone else. Stop treating us like we're idiots. We know you created this thread to continue the suicide discussion (which left off with Samson). At least be honest and don't treat us like idiots who can't see past your smoke screen.

Openly Curious

I am not treating anyone like an idiot. I started this thread to talk about Samson the topic was pretty simple and is not on the subject of suicide as the other thread was. But if Samson death was a heroic one or a failure and If you have any thing worth while to contribute it will be welcome. And yes Samson did come up in the other thread that was closed. I want to talk Samson if you do join in and stop all the accusations.

OC

It's not an accusation, it's very much a fact.

Regardless, as I said, it was obedience. His purpose was to act as a judge in Israel, and part of this was protecting Israel. By killing so many Philistines he was acting in what his calling was. There was no direct order; instead, it was the overall calling of what he was to do.

It doesn't make him a hero or a failure; it merely makes him someone that lived up to his purpose. And to one of the questions brought forth, yes, it is suicide. He took his life because he was miserable and wanted to die...he merely asked God to give him the strength to take out other people with him as well.

AK

Your accusation here are unfounded and unwarrented.

Then this then being your logic why is it when you live out your purpose in which God gave you to do. Why is it you must pray and ask God for your prayers and petitions to be answered. I mean seeing it is all a matter of obedience I guess you have no desires in which to approach God for you just obey him for that is fullfiling ones purpose. That only takes my hope away from me if this then is true you say. God never asked samson to do it so it wasn't God purpose for Him it was Samson desire and request from God it was not an act of obedience as God said he would give us the desires of our hearts. But in your way of seeing things as long as you are obeying your purpose or calling you don't need vindication from the things you may suffer being Christ servant yourself because it all about fullfilling your purpose. Do you not think God cares for the wrongs that others do unto you just because you are a servant of the Lord. Well he does and if not where's hope. You only send me back to the prayer room.

OC

It doesn't take away any hope. The purpose of prayer is to bring our wants and desires before God and to discover if they are on par with His Will for our lives. I can ask for a new car, but if it is not in His Will, I'm not going to get it. It is the same with Samson. He was asking God to give him the strength to complete his purpose in life. You keep saying, "God never said this so it wasn't what God wanted." That's horrible logic. That's saying that God isn't powerful and He is subject to only what He speaks and what man asks Him to do. God has become nothing more than a diving genie in this view.

The only thing I would question in your post is this idea that Samson was "miserable and wanted to die." Perhaps he did and perhaps he didn't. I don't even claim to know whether he wanted to die, or whether he wanted to make one last heroic stand, and his death was the consequence. I will say this however, I do not consider what he did to be suicide. If it were, that would mean God helped him kill himself because he couldn't have moved those columns in his own strength.

I don't know if you ever watch the show 24, but on a recent episode, the people were trapped in a building with nerve gas. To save the others, one man had to go out into the affected area to stop the spread of the gas. He knew he would die in doing so, but he did anyway. This man didn't want to die, it was just a consequence of his actions.

There are often stories of fire fighters rushing into a burning building to save people, knowing they faced almost certain death in doing so. To me they are heroes, and not committing suicide. I believe that was the case with Samson. He had no other way of taking out the Philisteans but by giving up his own life, and he was willing to do it.

In saying that, I again acknowledge this is speculation on my part, for the Bible doesn't say what Samson was thinking, only what he did. For instance, it doesn't say, "And Samson said unto God, life is not worth living like this, so I want you to help me kill myself. In exchange, I will take out the enemies of Isreal." It never says, so to claim to know his mind is mere speculation on anyone's part. The only thing we know is he wanted to avenge himself for his eyes as was pointed out. Beyond that, nobody knows.

No matter what, it's always going to be speculation, no matter which side we take. However, I'm willing to bet that after having his eyes plucked out, tortured, and left solely to be entertainment and laughed at...he couldn't have had much worth living for. That was the approach I was taking.

[Openly Curious]

'apothanein kerdos'

Look, I'm not going to tip-toe around like everyone else. Stop treating us like we're idiots. We know you created this thread to continue the suicide discussion (which left off with Samson). At least be honest and don't treat us like idiots who can't see past your smoke screen.

Openly Curious

I am not treating anyone like an idiot. I started this thread to talk about Samson the topic was pretty simple and is not on the subject of suicide as the other thread was. But if Samson death was a heroic one or a failure and If you have any thing worth while to contribute it will be welcome. And yes Samson did come up in the other thread that was closed. I want to talk Samson if you do join in and stop all the accusations.

OC

It's not an accusation, it's very much a fact.

Regardless, as I said, it was obedience. His purpose was to act as a judge in Israel, and part of this was protecting Israel. By killing so many Philistines he was acting in what his calling was. There was no direct order; instead, it was the overall calling of what he was to do.

It doesn't make him a hero or a failure; it merely makes him someone that lived up to his purpose. And to one of the questions brought forth, yes, it is suicide. He took his life because he was miserable and wanted to die...he merely asked God to give him the strength to take out other people with him as well.

AK

Your accusation here are unfounded and unwarrented.

Then this then being your logic why is it when you live out your purpose in which God gave you to do. Why is it you must pray and ask God for your prayers and petitions to be answered. I mean seeing it is all a matter of obedience I guess you have no desires in which to approach God for you just obey him for that is fullfiling ones purpose. That only takes my hope away from me if this then is true you say. God never asked samson to do it so it wasn't God purpose for Him it was Samson desire and request from God it was not an act of obedience as God said he would give us the desires of our hearts. But in your way of seeing things as long as you are obeying your purpose or calling you don't need vindication from the things you may suffer being Christ servant yourself because it all about fullfilling your purpose. Do you not think God cares for the wrongs that others do unto you just because you are a servant of the Lord. Well he does and if not where's hope. You only send me back to the prayer room.

OC

It doesn't take away any hope. The purpose of prayer is to bring our wants and desires before God and to discover if they are on par with His Will for our lives. I can ask for a new car, but if it is not in His Will, I'm not going to get it. It is the same with Samson. He was asking God to give him the strength to complete his purpose in life. You keep saying, "God never said this so it wasn't what God wanted." That's horrible logic. That's saying that God isn't powerful and He is subject to only what He speaks and what man asks Him to do. God has become nothing more than a diving genie in this view.

The only thing I would question in your post is this idea that Samson was "miserable and wanted to die." Perhaps he did and perhaps he didn't. I don't even claim to know whether he wanted to die, or whether he wanted to make one last heroic stand, and his death was the consequence. I will say this however, I do not consider what he did to be suicide. If it were, that would mean God helped him kill himself because he couldn't have moved those columns in his own strength.

I don't know if you ever watch the show 24, but on a recent episode, the people were trapped in a building with nerve gas. To save the others, one man had to go out into the affected area to stop the spread of the gas. He knew he would die in doing so, but he did anyway. This man didn't want to die, it was just a consequence of his actions.

There are often stories of fire fighters rushing into a burning building to save people, knowing they faced almost certain death in doing so. To me they are heroes, and not committing suicide. I believe that was the case with Samson. He had no other way of taking out the Philisteans but by giving up his own life, and he was willing to do it.

In saying that, I again acknowledge this is speculation on my part, for the Bible doesn't say what Samson was thinking, only what he did. For instance, it doesn't say, "And Samson said unto God, life is not worth living like this, so I want you to help me kill myself. In exchange, I will take out the enemies of Isreal." It never says, so to claim to know his mind is mere speculation on anyone's part. The only thing we know is he wanted to avenge himself for his eyes as was pointed out. Beyond that, nobody knows.

No matter what, it's always going to be speculation, no matter which side we take. However, I'm willing to bet that after having his eyes plucked out, tortured, and left solely to be entertainment and laughed at...he couldn't have had much worth living for. That was the approach I was taking.

Ak

My speculation was that he was indeed a man of valour and Samson is still a Hero to me and a great example of the faith. If all is true in your way of looking at things we all go out failures in God's sight and their is no heroism involved with fulfilling our callings and purposes in God. This is your view seeing as you see no heroism in Samson life but you see his life in all failure. That being the case you have no example to follow in this man of God Samson and you will go out a failure in your own thinking. If you cannot see the heroism in Samson I wonder how you view all the other great men and women in Hebrews 11.

OC

OC

[Openly Curious]

'apothanein kerdos'

Look, I'm not going to tip-toe around like everyone else. Stop treating us like we're idiots. We know you created this thread to continue the suicide discussion (which left off with Samson). At least be honest and don't treat us like idiots who can't see past your smoke screen.

Openly Curious

I am not treating anyone like an idiot. I started this thread to talk about Samson the topic was pretty simple and is not on the subject of suicide as the other thread was. But if Samson death was a heroic one or a failure and If you have any thing worth while to contribute it will be welcome. And yes Samson did come up in the other thread that was closed. I want to talk Samson if you do join in and stop all the accusations.

OC

It's not an accusation, it's very much a fact.

Regardless, as I said, it was obedience. His purpose was to act as a judge in Israel, and part of this was protecting Israel. By killing so many Philistines he was acting in what his calling was. There was no direct order; instead, it was the overall calling of what he was to do.

It doesn't make him a hero or a failure; it merely makes him someone that lived up to his purpose. And to one of the questions brought forth, yes, it is suicide. He took his life because he was miserable and wanted to die...he merely asked God to give him the strength to take out other people with him as well.

AK

Your accusation here are unfounded and unwarrented.

Then this then being your logic why is it when you live out your purpose in which God gave you to do. Why is it you must pray and ask God for your prayers and petitions to be answered. I mean seeing it is all a matter of obedience I guess you have no desires in which to approach God for you just obey him for that is fullfiling ones purpose. That only takes my hope away from me if this then is true you say. God never asked samson to do it so it wasn't God purpose for Him it was Samson desire and request from God it was not an act of obedience as God said he would give us the desires of our hearts. But in your way of seeing things as long as you are obeying your purpose or calling you don't need vindication from the things you may suffer being Christ servant yourself because it all about fullfilling your purpose. Do you not think God cares for the wrongs that others do unto you just because you are a servant of the Lord. Well he does and if not where's hope. You only send me back to the prayer room.

OC

It doesn't take away any hope. The purpose of prayer is to bring our wants and desires before God and to discover if they are on par with His Will for our lives. I can ask for a new car, but if it is not in His Will, I'm not going to get it. It is the same with Samson. He was asking God to give him the strength to complete his purpose in life. You keep saying, "God never said this so it wasn't what God wanted." That's horrible logic. That's saying that God isn't powerful and He is subject to only what He speaks and what man asks Him to do. God has become nothing more than a diving genie in this view.

The only thing I would question in your post is this idea that Samson was "miserable and wanted to die." Perhaps he did and perhaps he didn't. I don't even claim to know whether he wanted to die, or whether he wanted to make one last heroic stand, and his death was the consequence. I will say this however, I do not consider what he did to be suicide. If it were, that would mean God helped him kill himself because he couldn't have moved those columns in his own strength.

I don't know if you ever watch the show 24, but on a recent episode, the people were trapped in a building with nerve gas. To save the others, one man had to go out into the affected area to stop the spread of the gas. He knew he would die in doing so, but he did anyway. This man didn't want to die, it was just a consequence of his actions.

There are often stories of fire fighters rushing into a burning building to save people, knowing they faced almost certain death in doing so. To me they are heroes, and not committing suicide. I believe that was the case with Samson. He had no other way of taking out the Philisteans but by giving up his own life, and he was willing to do it.

In saying that, I again acknowledge this is speculation on my part, for the Bible doesn't say what Samson was thinking, only what he did. For instance, it doesn't say, "And Samson said unto God, life is not worth living like this, so I want you to help me kill myself. In exchange, I will take out the enemies of Isreal." It never says, so to claim to know his mind is mere speculation on anyone's part. The only thing we know is he wanted to avenge himself for his eyes as was pointed out. Beyond that, nobody knows.

No matter what, it's always going to be speculation, no matter which side we take. However, I'm willing to bet that after having his eyes plucked out, tortured, and left solely to be entertainment and laughed at...he couldn't have had much worth living for. That was the approach I was taking.

Tess my reply to you is the same as post #58 to AK

OC

[apothanein kerdos]

Ak

My speculation was that he was indeed a man of valour and Samson is still a Hero to me and a great example of the faith. If all is true in your way of looking at things we all go out failures in God's sight and their is no heroism involved with fulfilling our callings and purposes in God. This is your view seeing as you see no heroism in Samson life but you see his life in all failure. That being the case you have no example to follow in this man of God Samson and you will go out a failure in your own thinking. If you cannot see the heroism in Samson I wonder how you view all the other great men and women in Hebrews 11.

I never said that. What I said is that he obeyed. I even said, three times in this thread in fact, that he was neither a hero or a failure. He was merely someone who obeyed.

You keep trying to put words into everyone's mouths in an attempt to build a strawman. Where are you going with all of this because honestly, it's becomming quite pointless.

[Kabowd]

Some parts of Samson's life (when he was obedient) could be considered heroic. However, his death is not one of them. Even in Hebrews where he is mentioned with others (like David and Gideon), their deaths are mentioned...his is not. Right before he died, he even gives us a clue into his heart. He basically says "I want revenge for my eyes". Sure, in doing so he was able to fulfill a purpose (destroying the Philistines). But that doesn't make the attitude of his heart heroic. He was humiliated, and angry and wanted revenge. We really shouldn't romanticize and spiritualize the state of his heart when it's so obvious that he was thinking selfishly in that moment. God just decided to use it for His own glory.

[Kabowd]

The only thing I know concerning Samson, is he is listed with the great men and women of faith in Hebrews. To me, all these people were heroic in their own way. I don't want to include the entire chapter for space sake, but let's jump down to Hebrews 11:32-40

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail to tell of Gedeon, and of Abarak, and of SAMSON, and of Jephthae: of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgins, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Notice how Samson's name is mentioned prominently in verse 32. Now notice some things it says about the people mentioned in these verses of scripture. See how many of these things would pertain to Samson.

1 Out of weakness were made strong v 34

2 Waxed vailiant in fight v 34

3 Turned to flight the armies of the alien v 34

4 Had trials of cruel mockings v 36

5 Bonds and imprisonment v 36

6 Tempted v 37

7 Afflicted v 37

8 Tormented v 37

I realize everything mentioned in all verses didn't directly apply to Samson, such as women received their dead raised to life for example, but look how much did apply to this man of God. Then see what verse 39 once again has to say about everyone mentioned.

39 AND THESE ALL, HAVING OBTAINED A GOOD REPORT THROUGH FAITH, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE.

Notice it says Samson obtained a good report. That should lay to rest any doubts about his final destination.

As I said, I do not claim to know the mindset of Samson at the time of his death (whether he looked at his final action as suicide or the consequences of obtaining a final victory for Israel and against the false god of the Philisteans) but I choose to believe his actions were courageous and that if he could have defeated them without dying, he would have done so. There is no way either side can say conclusively in this since we can't read his mind, but that is my opinion.

Of all the heroic things mentioned that pertain to Samson....notice his death isn't mentioned.

[Openly Curious]

Ak

My speculation was that he was indeed a man of valour and Samson is still a Hero to me and a great example of the faith. If all is true in your way of looking at things we all go out failures in God's sight and their is no heroism involved with fulfilling our callings and purposes in God. This is your view seeing as you see no heroism in Samson life but you see his life in all failure. That being the case you have no example to follow in this man of God Samson and you will go out a failure in your own thinking. If you cannot see the heroism in Samson I wonder how you view all the other great men and women in Hebrews 11.

I never said that. What I said is that he obeyed. I even said, three times in this thread in fact, that he was neither a hero or a failure. He was merely someone who obeyed.

You keep trying to put words into everyone's mouths in an attempt to build a strawman. Where are you going with all of this because honestly, it's becomming quite pointless.

AK

Well that my point you saw neither but you did say he took his own life.

OC

[apothanein kerdos]

Ak

My speculation was that he was indeed a man of valour and Samson is still a Hero to me and a great example of the faith. If all is true in your way of looking at things we all go out failures in God's sight and their is no heroism involved with fulfilling our callings and purposes in God. This is your view seeing as you see no heroism in Samson life but you see his life in all failure. That being the case you have no example to follow in this man of God Samson and you will go out a failure in your own thinking. If you cannot see the heroism in Samson I wonder how you view all the other great men and women in Hebrews 11.

I never said that. What I said is that he obeyed. I even said, three times in this thread in fact, that he was neither a hero or a failure. He was merely someone who obeyed.

You keep trying to put words into everyone's mouths in an attempt to build a strawman. Where are you going with all of this because honestly, it's becomming quite pointless.

AK

Well that my point you saw neither but you did say he took his own life.

OC

Yes, he willingly took his own life, but also followed God's plan in the process. Jesus did something similar you know.

"Then Samson called to the LORD and said, "O Lord GOD, please remember me and please strengthen me just this time, O God, that I may at once be avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes."

Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and braced himself against them, the one with his right hand and the other with his left. And Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" And he bent with all his might so that the house fell on the lords and all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he killed in his life."

In other words, his wish was to die. He didn't ask for the strength to just kill them...he wished to die with them. It was suicide....there's no getting around it. God also aided him in this.

Regardless, where are you going with all this?