Rapture

[eric]

This thread has wandered off the topic a liitle. but I have to agree with tmrfiles. I consider myself to be as christian as I myself can get and as gentile as I can get, but I never consider myself as a spiritual jew, because I have been grafted into the root of David, but more like a foster or adopted gentile into a jewish family. However if someone would like to open a thread on the subject,that would be great.

[TomPJr]

No you will not find anything that remotely says Christians are "spiritual" Jews anywhere in the Holy Scriptures, and this is just another made up concept by the "church".

Except in Gal. 3.29, where it says "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Since this a Rapture discussion thread, kat... I will not derail it any further. But for the record, this does not mean nor imply Gentiles are "spritirual Jews", and this is a man-made concept. No where in the Bible are Gentiles referred to as "spiritual Jews". Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles. This verse taken from Galatians 3:29 merely says that Gentiles are grafted into the original covenant, promise and blessing that God started with Abraham and his natural seed, and simply joins Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel.

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...1709&st=280

You probably don't realize it tmrfiles, but you just agreed with Kat8585 and myself! That's exactly what we mean when we say spiritual Jew.

I do not appreciate your misrepresenting what I said here, Tom, or putting words into my post. I know what I said, and I do realize what I said and it is the opposite of what you said.

I'm sorry if I offended you tmrfiles...I don't wish to make you mad. However, where did I put words in your post. Obviously you don't understand the points that I was making then, because I agree with what you said ...quote:"Gentiles are grafted into the original covenant, promise and blessing that God started with Abraham and his natural seed, and simply joins Gentile Christians to what God had already started with Israel."

I'm not really sure what the argument is....do you?

[TomPJr]

This thread has wandered off the topic a liitle. but I have to agree with tmrfiles. I consider myself to be as christian as I myself can get and as gentile as I can get, but I never consider myself as a spiritual jew, because I have been grafted into the root of David, but more like a foster or adopted gentile into a jewish family. However if someone would like to open a thread on the subject,that would be great.

Eric,

that is what we mean when we say spiritual Jew. It's that simple. I've explained this in other posts. I believe that we are in agreement about the situation, but the term spiritual Jew is throwing people off.

When we are grafted in, we become part of the family, just like an adopted child takes the last name of their new parents.

That is why we say spiritual...obviously our blood doesn't change.

The reason for the reference "spiritual Jew" is because the promise was to Israels seed, the Jews. We as Christians are all spiritual people anyway, right?

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he should be the heire of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed through the Lawe, but through the righteousnesse of faith.

Gal 4:28 Now wee, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise

When we become partakers of the promise, we become spiritual Jews. I'm sorry for the confusion. Like I said, I believe we both understand the situation, but the term "spiritual Jew" was confusing people. It's just a term used to denote the idea that we become partakers....thats it.

again.....sorry for the confusion. I hope we can move past this little stumbling block. If you don't like the term...don't use it, but at least now maybe you'll know what it means when you hear others reference that term.

peace brother,

Tom

[Floatingaxe]

This thread has wandered off the topic a liitle. but I have to agree with tmrfiles. I consider myself to be as christian as I myself can get and as gentile as I can get, but I never consider myself as a spiritual jew, because I have been grafted into the root of David, but more like a foster or adopted gentile into a jewish family. However if someone would like to open a thread on the subject,that would be great.

Eric,

that is what we mean when we say spiritual Jew. It's that simple. I've explained this in other posts. I believe that we are in agreement about the situation, but the term spiritual Jew is throwing people off.

When we are grafted in, we become part of the family, just like an adopted child takes the last name of their new parents.

That is why we say spiritual...obviously our blood doesn't change.

The reason for the reference "spiritual Jew" is because the promise was to Israels seed, the Jews. We as Christians are all spiritual people anyway, right?

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he should be the heire of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed through the Lawe, but through the righteousnesse of faith.

Gal 4:28 Now wee, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise

When we become partakers of the promise, we become spiritual Jews. I'm sorry for the confusion. Like I said, I believe we both understand the situation, but the term "spiritual Jew" was confusing people. It's just a term used to denote the idea that we become partakers....thats it.

again.....sorry for the confusion. I hope we can move past this little stumbling block. If you don't like the term...don't use it, but at least now maybe you'll know what it means when you hear others reference that term.

peace brother,

Tom

[eric]

Good I'm glad you want to discuss rapture, because being jew or gentile has nothing to do with the OP, You've got a weid sense of humour, CJ, I can't see the joke, but I still remain a postie. And btw, I still don't cosider myself a spiritual jew, just a saved christian going through the process of sanctifcation ready to be glorified on the day of resurrection.

have a nice day.

[Guest Biblicist]

Greetings,

I have not read every post, but I have read some.

Did anyone use 2 Peter 3:10? The day of the Lord will come like a thief then everything will pass away and everything in them will be exposed to judgement.

This verse is cross referenced with Matthew 24:40-44

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 I find verse 2 & 3 particularly interesting.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I think Christ will return two more times. One as a thief in the night, and the other as Triumphant King.

I wonder though, who put together the "time line" for these events. I remember seeing it once, Creation, the church, the rapture, the tribulation, Christ's return and Armageddon and the Millenium. Where did that come from?

In His Mighty Grip,

Bib

[TomPJr]

This thread has wandered off the topic a liitle. ...

Ah, so it has...allow me to kick it back into gear then by closing out that argument with a quote from ICorinthians 12:13.

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

I want to point out some obvious parts about Christ's promise of the Rapture from John 14:1-3.

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

The first point I'll tackle is the fact that these verses exclusively deal with how He will return for believers, note that there is no hint of wrath or condemnation, battle, nothing of the type of Prophetic description of the end time tribulations which are described in Mathew 24 and Revelation.

The fact that He opens with "Let not your heart be troubled" defines that he doesn't want anyone to stress over it or be in fear, building the hope of His return.

What makes these verses really important against the argument of "Post-Tribulationism", is the fact that Jesus is leaving to prepare a place and the place that He is leaving to is Heaven. He then says in verse three "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.". Once His place has been prepared, He returns to "receive you unto myself" receive the believers but not to return to the earth as one would have to believe where Post-Tribulationism is concerned, but He is in fact taking those believers and returning from where He was preparing that place "that where I am, there ye may be also" In Post-Tribulationism one must return to earth with Christ where here Christ is clearly saying that He is coming for believers and returning to the place that He has prepared in Heaven.

So we clearly see an event here that not only demonstrates Christ receiving believers without any form of condemnation or details of Tribulation, but also, the fact that He takes these believers to where He is undermines the Post-Tribulation Rapture argument at the same time by implying that He is returning to Heaven with these Saints and not to the Earth.

I think this should get the thread back on track...

In Christ

CJ

That is a misrepresentation of post tribulation believers....

You see...you are quite right about Jesus going to prepare a place for us. When he comes, it will be after the tribulation.

The saints will be protected throught he tribulation, not from it. That is a principle all throughout the bible.

That is why it takes much faith. The dead saints are not in heaven right now. They don't go until the resurection. Jesus doesn't touch ground when he comes, but the the saints meet him in the sky, and the wicked are destroyed with the brightness of his coming. This is when the millenium begins.

look here at what the bible says about the dead...

Ecc 9:5 For the liuing know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither haue they any more a reward, for the memorie of them is forgotten.

(the dead know not anything. and they don't have a memory. certainly the living remember them. If you went straigh to heaven wouldn't you know stuff and have a memory?)

[EricH]

That is a misrepresentation of post tribulation believers....

You see...you are quite right about Jesus going to prepare a place for us. When he comes, it will be after the tribulation.

The saints will be protected throught he tribulation, not from it. That is a principle all throughout the bible.

I agree. The fact that God will deliver believers from wrath, does not mean He needs to remove them from the earth to do it.

[Floatingaxe]

look here at what the bible says about the dead...

Ecc 9:5 For the liuing know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither haue they any more a reward, for the memorie of them is forgotten.

(the dead know not anything. and they don't have a memory. certainly the living remember them. If you went straigh to heaven wouldn't you know stuff and have a memory?)

This is scripture alright, but it is nothing to do with a godly view. It is the view of a man "under the sun"! Not the view of God nor Jesus Christ. The flesh surely rests and sleeps, but the PERSON goes to be with God. You are perpetuating the errant doctrine of Soul Sleep, and I thnk it should be cut short here in Worthy.

This scripture you quote is the source of that antichristian doctrine.

[TomPJr]

look here at what the bible says about the dead...

Ecc 9:5 For the liuing know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither haue they any more a reward, for the memorie of them is forgotten.

(the dead know not anything. and they don't have a memory. certainly the living remember them. If you went straigh to heaven wouldn't you know stuff and have a memory?)

This is scripture alright, but it is nothing to do with a godly view. It is the view of a man "under the sun"! Not the view of God nor Jesus Christ. The flesh surely rests and sleeps, but the PERSON goes to be with God. You are perpetuating the errant doctrine of Soul Sleep, and I thnk it should be cut short here in Worthy.

This scripture you quote is the source of that antichristian doctrine.

whatever dude!

I can see that you only see what you want to see...not what the scripture says.

I am certainly not Anti-Christian!

Edited December 29, 2006 by TomPJr