Rapture

[TomPJr]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (As you can see here the seal of God, and the mark of the beast happens before Jesus returns and before the millenium begins)

this means that the trib happens before Christ returns, and before the thousand years begins.

Quite right!

Christ returns and then the thousand year reign begins. The catching away of the Church is not anything to do with the Second Coming.

what do you mean?

that is when the rapture takes place. when Jesus comes, the righteous are raptured, the wicked are destroyed, and the millenium begins. The rightous in heaven and the wicked dead. after the thousand years, Jesus returns with the Holy city and the wicked are resurected and, with Satans influence, try to take the city. Then God destroys them for good in the lake of fire.

[Floatingaxe]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (As you can see here the seal of God, and the mark of the beast happens before Jesus returns and before the millenium begins)

this means that the trib happens before Christ returns, and before the thousand years begins.

Quite right!

Christ returns and then the thousand year reign begins. The catching away of the Church is not anything to do with the Second Coming.

what do you mean?

that is when the rapture takes place. when Jesus comes, the righteous are raptured, the wicked are destroyed, and the millenium begins. The rightous in heaven and the wicked dead. after the thousand years, Jesus returns with the Holy city and the wicked are resurected and, with Satans influence, try to take the city. Then God destroys them for good in the lake of fire.

Not at all. I am planning on being with Him, riding when He makes His ride! Clothed in our white robes of righteousness we will ride with Him into battle, because we were caught up with him earlier, as He was instructed by God to call up His Bride to Himself.

[kenod]

If I'm not mistaken, the pretrib rapturists believe that if you are left behind you will hav a second chance to be saved.

Some may teach that, I'm not sure - there is a wide diversity of opinions. Anyway, I do not agree witht the second chance idea.

Have you considered that the pretribulation rapture might be for some believers and not all? I find the parables of the virgins and the servants very interesting because the context of Mat 24 & 25 is prophecy. They were all true virgins, all true servants - all children of God. Some were chastised for their lack of action and preparedness. The 5 wise virgins with the "oil" went into the "marriage". The unprofitable servant was cast out into a time of weeping and wailing (Tribulation).

How should we prepare for the return of Jesus Christ? By trying to win souls and being as good as we can? Sure, they are good things. But God has always required one thing above all else, and that is faith in his Word.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[kenod]

Personally that is what I believe entirely but in a quirky kind of way,all non-believers are living their second chance right now, the difference being, in order to obtain their salvation they will literally have to place their heads on the chopping block to be saved... take the mark of the beast or die. We should tackle this in the MOB thread because this also proves the MOB is a physical mark and not a spiritual one.

Sounds like you haven't read all the verses that mention "forehead/s" yet

Edited December 30, 2006 by kenod

[TomPJr]

when Jesus comes, the righteous are raptured, the wicked are destroyed, and the millenium begins. The rightous in heaven and the wicked dead. after the thousand years, Jesus returns with the Holy city and the wicked are resurected and, with Satans influence, try to take the city. Then God destroys them for good in the lake of fire.

Can you quote me a verse that says Satan tries to take the city with the dead that God resurrects after the Millenial Reign ?

CJ

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the numbe of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(remember, God brings the New Jerusalem out of Heaven, after the 1000 years, right before he resurects the wicked.)

[TomPJr]

If I'm not mistaken, the pretrib rapturists believe that if you are left behind you will hav a second chance to be saved.

Those that are left behind are not dead, they just didn't accept Christ prior to the Rapture, there is no scriptural support whatsoever that you cannot obtain salvation during the Tribulation period, in fact Revelation is quite clear that many will come to salvation for refusing the mark of the beast during the Tribulation.

Peace

CJ

When Christ comes to rapture the saved, all the wicked are destroyed with the brightness of his coming.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

those that are left behind are destroyed.

You are correct about abtaining salvation during the tribulation.... but, the tribulation happens before Christ comes.

When he comes his reward is with him.

The mark of the beast happens before the rapture and before the millenium.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (As you can see here the seal of God, and the mark of the beast happens before Jesus returns and before the millenium begins)

[David H.]

They were chosen to be the human channel for the Messiah. The entire Holy Scriptures was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by Israelites. The Jewish people did not fail, and have fulfilled the role for which they were called to do. God's relationship with Israel and the Jewish people is everlasting, as promised in His Word. And God is in the process of redeeming His Chosen People, the Jews.

And in that remnant of Jews -- Jesus and his Apostles -- the full covenant is conveyed into the church they founded (as the twelve foundations in Revelation). So, the people of the twelve Patriarchs enter a city through twelve gates named after those Patriarchs, which is established on the foundation laid by the Apostle. Thus the covenant is fulfilled entirely. Jews, of course, are as free to enter as Gentiles. After all, it should be easier for them to enter the Holy City, which is the Bride of the Lamb, because the gates have the names of their Patriarchs on them, and because the city New Jerusalem (which replaces the Old Jerusalem) was built on the foundations laid by twelve Jewish Apostles.

But this same Abrahamic Covenant stated from the beginning that it was conditional. Everlasting, yes; but it's condition is also everlasting. God told Abraham that every member of his household, whether a member by blood or by purchase, must be circumcised. He said that anyone who is not circumcised shall be "cut off" from God's people because "he has broken my covenant." Obviously, you cannot break any covenant that has no conditions. So, while the covenant is available eternally to those who are circumcised, any member of Abraham's household can be cut off from it for refusal to be circumcised.

The Apostle Paul, then, pointed out that circumcision never meant anything if it was not circumcision of the heart -- just as baptism means nothing if it does not come from the heart. Circumcision was a way to sign on to the covenant -- to pledge one's faith to the God of Abraham. But God will not be duped by outward signs. That is what Paul is saying. He will not be duped by baptism if a person doesn't mean it; and he will not be duped by circumcision if it is not a pledge to God. That's because the Covenant with Abraham came only because of faith in the first place -- Abraham's faith -- and those who join his household by circumcision were pledging their faith to Abraham's God.

So, any one and any number can be cut off permanently from the covenant for failure to live faithfully to God. Next, Paul pointed out the stumbling block for Jews. When the covenant was implemented under Moses, it came with a whole set of rules. Most Jews, like the Pharisees, thought that they would enter the Kingdom of God if they lived perfectly by those laws. Jesus, in his Sermon on the Mount, and Paul, throughout his letters, taught that the law was not given to bring perfection and could not bring it even if you lived perfectly by it. Why? Jesus and Paul point out the purpose of the law was to reveal the imperfections of our hearts by giving us something to sin against. The entire theme of Jesus' sermon on the mount was that you would have to be more perfec than the Pharisee who perfectly upheld the law to get into heaven because the faulty condition of the heart still remained. Sure, the Pharisee didn't commit adultery, but his heart desired (lusted) to commit adultery. His actions arranged divorces as a loophole for dumping a wife one was tired of in order to marry a prettier chick. So, the Pharisees heart was still imperfect. He stumbled over the stumbling block of the Law by failing to recognize the imperfections of his heart.

So, where does it all end. It ends with a new Kingdom under a new and superior covenant that is in Jesus' blood only. God's old marriage with Israel passed away completely upon Jesus death because marriage was "till death due us part." God has already divorced the House of Israel, and now Judah had killed her husband (in the form of God's son) and was a widow. Jesus, free of the Mosaic Covenant (marriage contract) with Israel was free to marry a new bride -- the Church. "Church" means "assembly." It is the "assembly of nations" or "community of nations" that was promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. All rights of the old covenant are brought into the new marriage because Jesus wrote a new will and testament before he died. It was recorded by the prophets. So, the Old Covenant dies in his blood and a New Covenant is born in his resurrection. The disciples are first to join. Shortly thereafter thousands stream in. Forty years later, God's old widow dies, literally dies as that last generation dies out completely and so does its religion and homeland in the conquest by Rome of A.D. 70. Forty years after Jesus' death the old widow is taken apart and dispersed to the nations; but the New Covenant is thriving.

No Jew could enter that covenant by birthright. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus, a Pharisee and leader of the Jews, he would have to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. Being born a Jew was not enough to make him chosen for the Kingdom that was under the New Covenant. We have sapped the meaning out of the phrase "born again" by taking it out of the context in which it was spoken. Even Jesus' own mother and brothers could not enter his Kingdom by birthright. He said his only mother and brothers were those who obeyed the will of God. The will of God is his last will and testament, known as the New Covenant or New Testament, but recorded in its legal particulars by the prophets. So, a Jew can enter the Kingdom but it has to be by faith, as with all others. All must be spiritually born into the Kingdom by faith in Jesus Christ.

Jews were, indeed, the first to enter. Quite possibly all the tribes of Israel are represented in the blood lines of the 13 Apostles and Jesus. Note that just as one tribe in the days of Israel (Joseph) split into two half tribes (Ephraim and Menasseh), so Judas position among the twelve split into Matthias (chosen by man) and Paul (chosen by Christ). Is it any coincidence that Ephraim recieved the blessings of Abraham, even though he was the second son because he was chosen by God. As we see in the Book of Acts, Paul who was second to be chosen to replace Judas is chosen by God, and only his ministry appears to be blessed, for Matthias practically drops off the face of the earth.

So, in the Apostles is that remnant of all Israel, and they bring the inheritance of each tribe into the church and confer it upon Jesus. This is symbolized in Revelation by 24 elders casting their crowns at Jesus' feet. Who are these 24? They represent the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles. The inheritance of the 12 patriarchs is carried in the bloodlines of the 12 apostles, and they cast their own right to administer over their inheritance at the feet of Jesus. Thereby, he becomes all in all. All the inheritance of Abraham is given to Christ to administer and becomes the inheritance of his Church, where you or anyone can become joint heirs by joining the commonwealth of the church. That is why it is called a common wealth.

Jews are not exactly replaced. They are cut off in terms of any right of birth (blood rights) because Jesus brought through the purchase of his blood slaves into the House of Abraham and circumcised them so they are properly Abraham's seed by adoption. He has this right as the descendant of David's throne, which ruled ALL ISRAEL. Thus, Gentiles were grafted into a tree that represents Abraham's inheritance, and Jewish branches were cut off but can be grafted back in again, just as the disciples were grafted in by faith. The Old Covenant was really always by faith in God, not law. The law was only intended to reveal our need for faithful dependance on God's grace. The New Covenant, too, is by faith.

That way, in Jesus, there is no longer Jew nor Greek, for old bloodlines do not matter. The two people have been made one. There is one kingdom, one bride, one New Jerusalem, on holy priesthood, one new man -- because all, Jew or Gentile, enter by being grafted in -- including Jesus' own mother and brothers. Old Israel bore little fruit; so, like the fig tree in Jesus' example, it was cursed and withered by A.D. 70, and the Kingdom was given to another people -- an assembly of nations, which can be called a "church of nations" because "church" means "assembly." The Kingdom was given to another people that has born much fruit as Jesus said in his parables that it would. History testifies to the fruitfulness of the church compared to that group that chose not to be part of the church and was cut off and cast out of the land.

Now, they, too, can be grafted back in, and Paul indicates they will at the end of the age. That is probably why God brought them to Israel now -- to teach them they cannot have the Promise just because they are Jews. He put the Promise right in their hand, wrapped their fingers around it, but they did not HAVE it. That is why, their residence there is called an "occupation" by ALL the world. They do not HAVE the land; they merely occupy it. They want to have the land, but they cannot hold onto it. It is slipping from their fingers. They thought they could have it simply as a birthright. They thought they could have it by their own strength and cunning, apart from God; but they have done nothing but lose it, and will lose more still. Why? Isn't that part of God's plan just as surely as his bringing them there? Of course it is. It is the only way they can learn that their zionist dream can never be fulfilled as a birthright, FOR THEY, TOO, MUST BE BORN AGAIN IN ORDER TO INHERIT THE PROMISE. That, I believe, is why we are watching them lose it, painfully lose it. What could be a more stark lesson than to have it right in their hand with their fingers wrapped around it and STILL lose it? They lost the Sinai. They lost what they tried to take in Lebanon. They lost Gaza. They will likely lose the Golan, and are talking about losing parts of the west bank. And if they lose all of that, will they, then, have the rest in peace. Of course not.

Because you cannot have the Promised Land in peace unless you accept the Prince of Peace because he is the sole and rightful ruler of the land. All crowns are already laid at his feet by the Apostles, and all the inheritance belongs to him, who is all in all. That is WHY he is called the Prince of Peace. So, when their situation is hopeless. When they have lost all of the land they acquired since 1967, FORTY YEARS AGO, then they will see him coming in the clouds and will say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," the proper greeting for the Messiah. And they will enter his covenant. Thus the first people of God will be the last people of God to come into the Kingdom. The first shall be last. Just as the last people to be chosen (the elect Gentiles) were the first group to come in in great numbers. The last shall be first, and the first shall be last, and Christ shall be all in all.

Blessings,

David Haggith

[TomPJr]

I'll put both your posts together to make the discussion easier.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the numbe of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(remember, God brings the New Jerusalem out of Heaven, after the 1000 years, right before he resurects the wicked.)

So if I understand you correctly are you saying that those being gathered together in verse 8 are the same who are the dead who live again in verse 5?

Peace

CJ

Yes!

They are the wicked since the beginning of time who have died before Jesus comes, and the wicked who are destroyed by the brightness of his coming. Basically, all the wicked, or unrighteous.

there are Four groups of people when Jesus comes...

1) the alive in Christ

2) the dead in Christ

3) the alive wicked

4) the dead wicked

the dead in christ are raised and they along with the living in Christ put on immortality, and go to heaven for the 1000 years.

the dead wicked remain dead, and the living wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming.

The "rest of the dead" are the wicked, who live not untill the thousand years are finished.

Satan is bound in chains of circumstance here on this destroyed, desolate earth, with all the fallen angels to ponder what they've done, for a thousand years. then when the righteous return with Christ and the New City after the millenium, the wicked are resurected and Satan is loosed, because he has people to manipulate again(the wicked).

peace brother,

Tom

[Floatingaxe]

That's the first I've heard that we are whisked away to heaven for 1000 yrs! No...we live here for the Millennial Reign of Christ. I don't know where you are going off, but there is nothing in scripture that indicates that...there are other scenarios, but I have never heard of your picture.

[TomPJr]

That's the first I've heard that we are whisked away to heaven for 1000 yrs! No...we live here for the Millennial Reign of Christ. I don't know where you are going off, but there is nothing in scripture that indicates that...there are other scenarios, but I have never heard of your picture.

I don't understand why you can't see that.

Why else would the righteous be caught up to meet Jesus in the sky then? Certainly not to just come back down here. they go off to the mansions that He is preparing for them.

I've given much scripture that indicates just that...you just choose to close your eyes to it. I no longer wish to debate this with you because you just dodge the scriptures that I show you, and do not address the plain teachings of the bible which I have shared with you. I have put them on here much before, but you just ignore the scriptures that contradict what you believe. I can do nothing for you if you wish to deny the truth. It is the Holy Spirits job now.

Blessings,

Tom