nebula Posted May 8, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hey - this thread isn't supposed to be yet another pre- mid- post- Trib rapture debate. It's just about the interpretation of one passage of Scripture. Can we stick with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 8, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hey - this thread isn't supposed to be yet another pre- mid- post- Trib rapture debate. It's just about the interpretation of one passage of Scripture. Can we stick with that? But it is about the rapture debate in that those who do not hold to pre-tribulation rapture, will quote this passage as the definitive prophesy of the New Testament by Christ Himself and it is totally consistent with a post tribulation rapture. So I think the original poster was offering reasons for why Christ does not mention anything about a two timed return, or a rapture for some and a tribulation then salvation for others. Which there may be an explanation for, I hold to the more direct meaning, but I am interested in the responses, and certainly don't want to get sidetracked, but you the whole point of the discussion is to bolster the pre-trib rapture argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 8, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 At the risk of overstatement...I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church...The 144,000 are the Jewish remnant but they will also do a supernatural job of evangelizing and will have gentile converts...what I am suggesting is at the 2nd Coming of the reigning King Jesus this verse refers to the removal of Satan, demons, and the evil followers who will all be pretty debased at this point. Their removal will leave the saints here and the dead and Christ and the raptured church who return with Christ at His 2nd Advent in one place for the 1,000 year reign. I hope I have been specific enough that everyone understands what I am suggesting these verses mean. As an argument for this, I am saying that if these two verses refer to a prior rapture and those removed were saints, Jesus broke his comments about the tribulation and inserted these sentences of commentary totally out of sequence with what He was explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Daave Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I, for one, am sorry to see the different views on the rapture ending. I understand that the topic was only the context of the orignial verse in Matthew, but none the less, I was enjoying the different views. I have been told that the rapture theology was of fairly recent vintage, the last few hundred years, and have been in the process of rethinking some of what I have been taught. Daave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 8, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 I don't think it has ended we are just waiting for Jack Van Impe to post and Hal Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Times Posted May 8, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 157 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/23/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1946 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I don't think it has ended we are just waiting for Jack Van Impe to post and Hal Lindsay WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted May 8, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I don't think it has ended we are just waiting for Jack Van Impe to post and Hal Lindsay Oh yeah, What about Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye. May as well have all the escapists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 9, 2006 How do we explain II Peter, which matches Christ's discussion of the tribulation and His return? 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germanJoy Posted May 9, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2006 (edited) Hi German joy, So you are saying that a person who has a true saving faith in Christ, but does not believe that there is a rapture prior to the Return of Christ will not be caught up in the air at His return? Hi Smalcald, That is a very good question. If the person does not believe to be caught up/raptured, he/she will surely be caught unready for it. Thus, his/her unbelief will keep him/her from responding to the call of Christ which is "Come up, here". He/She could start arguing in this manner: "I don't want to be taken out since the evil ones according to the bible are the ones taken out while the righteous remain. So as a righteous believer, I choose to remain. Sorry, whoever/whatever you are, I will not come up." While the "raptured" believers would QUICKLY AND EAGERLY respond to meet the Lord in the air, the "unraptured" believers would struggle and say "no, I don't believe in this.". The Word of God says, "Be it done to you according to your faith." Matthew 9:29 Those who have faith to be raptured will be raptured and those who have no faith to be raptured will not be raptured. I don't find that in scripture at all. All who have faith in Christ, a true saving faith, will be saved in the same way at His return. I don't see two classes of people based on their doctrinal stands over this one issue of prophecy. Unless you are saying that if one has faith in Christ they will agree with you about this prophetic event, and those who do not, do not have faith and are not saved at this time? This has nothing to do with salvation. The raptured believers in Christ, as well as the unraptured believers in Christ (if they endure until the end), are both saved. Although both have "genuine" faith, one remains alive on earth, continues in the faith, and will be persecuted under the "ruleship of the beast, the antichrist". The other disappears with their glorified bodies (together with all dead in Christ) from the earth and stays and reigns with Christ eternally. Some of the "unraptured believers" will be killed/beheaded and will then be raised up for the 1000 years rule. The rest of the dead are then raised after the 1000 years rule and then the Judgement comes. All who are faithful to Christ will be saved but not all saved wants to be raptured. Edited May 9, 2006 by germanJoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Hi German joy, So you are saying that a person who has a true saving faith in Christ, but does not believe that there is a rapture prior to the Return of Christ will not be caught up in the air at His return? Hi Smalcald, That is a very good question. If the person does not believe to be caught up/raptured, he/she will surely be caught unready for it. Thus, his/her unbelief will keep him/her from responding to the call of Christ which is "Come up, here". He/She could start arguing in this manner: "I don't want to be taken out since the evil ones according to the bible are the ones taken out while the righteous remain. So as a righteous believer, I choose to remain. Sorry, whoever/whatever you are, I will not come up." While the "raptured" believers would QUICKLY AND EAGERLY respond to meet the Lord in the air, the "unraptured" believers would struggle and say "no, I don't believe in this.". The Word of God says, "Be it done to you according to your faith." Matthew 9:29 Those who have faith to be raptured will be raptured and those who have no faith to be raptured will not be raptured. I don't find that in scripture at all. All who have faith in Christ, a true saving faith, will be saved in the same way at His return. I don't see two classes of people based on their doctrinal stands over this one issue of prophecy. Unless you are saying that if one has faith in Christ they will agree with you about this prophetic event, and those who do not, do not have faith and are not saved at this time? This has nothing to do with salvation. The raptured believers in Christ, as well as the unraptured believers in Christ (if they endure until the end), are both saved. Although both have "genuine" faith, one remains alive on earth, continues in the faith, and will be persecuted under the "ruleship of the beast, the antichrist". The other disappears with their glorified bodies (together with all dead in Christ) from the earth and stays and reigns with Christ eternally. Some of the "unraptured believers" will be killed/beheaded and will then be raised up for the 1000 years rule. The rest of the dead are then raised after the 1000 years rule and then the Judgement comes. All who are faithful to Christ will be saved but not all saved wants to be raptured. Okay, I can see your logic Germanjoy, thanks for your response. Although I am having a hard time seeing that any believers with true faith at the time of the rapture, would not be part of rapture if one were to occur. I don't see any scripture that would support a dividing of believers at the time of the rapture. It would seem to me that the rapture again is something Christ does for us, not that we would do for Christ, meaning that we don't decide to join Christ in the air if we already have true faith in Christ we are simply taken, poof, the decision was made by Christ not us, even if we were wrong about when the rapture and His return was to take place. Now I think a case can be made in Revelation that some non-believers will become believers during the tribulation. To me it seems as if you are making faith in this one theological event, the rapture, equal to faith in Christ. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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