National ID Card in effect by May 2008

[Guest NewPilgrim]

The danger with pre-supposing the nature of the mark is that by looking for one particular thing, we may miss it all together. While a chip implant seems a very likely and compelling possibility, the scriptures denote simply that we will receive a mark on the right hand or forehead. The direct translation of "mark" from the greek is a permenant affliction. A scar, a scratch or a branding of somesort would fall under this description. Currently, for a chip to contain the relevant information its size would require an incisition of the skin in order to insert it, leaving a scar. However, with the ever increasing methods of miniturisation, it may not be long before such a chip would be small enough to be injected, leaving no trace. That is why it is somewhat vain to try and predict the exact nature of it. When it comes, we will know. Being Gods people he will afford us that much wisdom

[buckthesystem]

I don't think we will know when the mark of the beast eventually comes. I think the genuine mark will come well after our generation is all gone and those who are left will have been subject to so much brain washing and propaganda about the "global village" that they will gladly take the mark that denotes them as belonging to the one-world state. I have heard say that "the mark" must be about worship, not necessarily money or "identity". Well, doesn't the "id system" (world-wide that is) make you "property of the state" and as you can "not serve two masters" you must worship your master - the state?

But the big thing is "not able to buy or sell etc......" The id system covers all that.

Maybe it is time to take all this seriously.

Instead I hear the "excuse" so many times "it won't affect me so I don't care", "what about your children or grandchildren", "well, that is their problem". Does it not concern anyone that we are making the problem for them?

[BlindSeeker]

I believe the National ID card is simply and move toward the end, a bio-GPS/RFID chip.

(I posted this same post on another thread called "The Great American Sell Out.)

The purpose of the chip wll be an attempt merge the "fictional straw man" that our government has created in our stead with the living soul person.

Everyone that has a Social Security number has a trust established in their name in which we become the debtor and the government becomes the controller. It is against that fictitious strawman / trust that the government borrows against from the privately own Federal Reserve Bank. We are made unto government assets/collateral and that is why you cannot take a newborn out of the hospital until it has be assigned a SS#

All Trusts are like Corporations and are record in all UPPER CASE which is why names appear on Social Security cards, Driver licenses, credit cards . . . .

Even when you are required to go court your name on the docket will all be in UPPER CASE because the matter is one of commerce and debt.

Courts no longer function as Courts of Law, but have been functioning for a long time as Admiralty Courts, or Maritime Courts in which they have a right to seize the vessel to settle disputes. That is why the why legal system has become one which must be bonded and all legal settlements have an economic aspect.

We being made the debtor of the government established Trusts are the ones made obligated for all debts levied against those Trusts.

That is why some have filed a UCC (UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE) -1 form to make a record of legal distinction that they are

[buckthesystem]

Blindseeker, you said: "Everyone that has a Social Security number has a trust established in their name in which we become the debtor and the government becomes the controller. It is against that fictitious strawman / trust that the government borrows against from the privately own Federal Reserve Bank. We are made unto government assets/collateral and that is why you cannot take a newborn out of the hospital until it has be assigned a SS#"

Not knowing everything there is to know about the American system I have a couple of questions, namely:

I know that the SSN system has been in America for 60 years or so, but what did it replace? Does everybody have to have an SSN? Or only those who expect to get welfare? What is the "advantage" to people in "getting an SSN number? Do you need it to pay tax?

And Every single baby that is born can't be born in a hospital. What if you have your baby at home or "out in the sticks" and just don't "register" it?

And will the "real id" system replace the SSN system?

Also (sorry, I know I did say a couple of questions, but .....) one thing that always "gets peoples' gander up" about any id system is "numbering the people". It seems that that is exactly what the SSN system is all about, so why is there/was there no fuss made about this?

[Biscuit]

It would definitely seem that the id card/database (you mustn't ever discount the database as this is the really dangerous part of the "id card", the id card itself is just the seemingly benign "front end" of the system and used to market it because it sounds so innocuous - you know "what is one more card to carry") is a world-wide phenomenon that is being suddenly imposed on populations at all pretty much the same time).

I have heard the theory that it is the MOB for years now. I even remember a friend telling me that and trying to explain "face recognition technology" and the possible uses of an "id card" well before the technology was even generally available to be used for surveillence and control.

I listened to her views at the time but dismissed them, thinking "the world populations would never stand for this". However now, two decades later, I am thinking that she was absolutely right. What made me realise this was reading about the plans for taking peoples' biometric measurements for an id card - or rather the database. "ID card publicity" talked about taking an "iris scan" - which would affect the forehead (the MOB is supposed to be a mark on the forehead and there is nothing in the Bible to tell us that it would be visible) and "fingerprints" (or rather "fingerscans" as they are referred to now) would certainly be used on the right hand.

Also the "id card/database" will be necessary so that we can "buy or sell, own property, rent property, work, and actually exist in society".

Ickduboise says: "when the mark is established people will be given a choice as to whether or not they want it. It is not time yet for the mark. You will know if you are still here when the mark is offered"

Well, yeah, that is true. The American id card, the UK one and the others all have in common the fact that sure you are given the choice, you don't have to drive, buy, sell, travel anywhere, work, seek medical treatment, live anywhere, visit a solicitor or library or learning institution, or in fact live. In other words you "have Hobson's choice" you either take the MOB or die a slow death from starvation or perhaps from accident or disease that you will not be able to seek medical treatment for. Oh, and of course (I guess not in America as I haven't read of any plans to "fine" people) but in UK they have a plan for the government to progressively steal money from somebody who doesn't want to be "registered" for the MOB/NIR until they are bankrupted. But there is always a choice.

People seem to be concerned about an implant, a subdermal computer chip perhaps, or a microchip implanted in a body organ (I have read about that possibility). My theory is that "function creep" will take care of that idea. Implants will be mandatory in about three generations time (and what choice is a new born baby going to have?) And of course there will be little or no resistance to this because people will have been brought up with enough propaganda to make them feel that it is OK, even desirable.

The big question in my mind is WHY? Why are governments doing this to their people?

It seems from trying to read everything there is to read on the subject that there will be absolutely no "benefits" to anybody who has an id card or is registered on a government database and the "official line", i.e. "combatting terrorism, reducing welfare fraud" is utterly ludicrous and HOW an id card could do any of those things has yet to be explained. So the only "reason" I have come up with is: "Money". It has got to be about money (that of course, and the "delight" it will provide government employees in ordering people around).

This site suggests that this might be a motive, read it and see what you think:

http://www.nickcohen.net/?p=98

So you think this national ID card is the mark? You make an interesting point that the thumbscan and iris scan that is required with this national ID card goes along with the "right hand or forehead" part of the prophecy. Other One said it is actually a facial image instead of an iris scan. It is my understanding that Oklahoma is one of the first states to go to this ID card, and Other One already got it, right Other One? So you think Other One is going to hell because he accepted this ID card? I have a couple of reasons why I don't think this national ID card is the mark.

It is going into effect as we speak, but we are still not a cashless society. I can go out tomorrow and cut someones lawn for 30 bucks, get paid cash, and go to Walmart and buy groceries with my 30 bucks. And I can do all of this without a national ID card. I can still buy and sell. Revelation 13:17 says that I cannot buy or sell without this mark.

Also, where does the name of the beast or the number of his name come into play? 666? How has Other One worshipped the beast or his image according to Revelation 14:9? Also read Revelation 19:20. Have we been deceived by the beast or the false prophet? Won't the antichrist need to appear on the scene before "the mark" will be offered?

A chip implant makes more sense to me. Then people can go to Walmart, do the self checkout, scan their groceries, and then run their hand across the scanner to pay. The chip would also allow people to be tracked by satellite. A card will not allow this, since you could toss your card in the garbage or could probably even disable it, by putting it in the microwave for a short time. You can't put your hand in the microwave.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I don't understand these things and am looking for answers. I guess I need to pray to God for more wisdom. Thanks and God bless.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Biscuit

[buckthesystem]

It would definitely seem that the id card/database (you mustn't ever discount the database as this is the really dangerous part of the "id card", the id card itself is just the seemingly benign "front end" of the system and used to market it because it sounds so innocuous - you know "what is one more card to carry") is a world-wide phenomenon that is being suddenly imposed on populations at all pretty much the same time).

I have heard the theory that it is the MOB for years now. I even remember a friend telling me that and trying to explain "face recognition technology" and the possible uses of an "id card" well before the technology was even generally available to be used for surveillence and control.

I listened to her views at the time but dismissed them, thinking "the world populations would never stand for this". However now, two decades later, I am thinking that she was absolutely right. What made me realise this was reading about the plans for taking peoples' biometric measurements for an id card - or rather the database. "ID card publicity" talked about taking an "iris scan" - which would affect the forehead (the MOB is supposed to be a mark on the forehead and there is nothing in the Bible to tell us that it would be visible) and "fingerprints" (or rather "fingerscans" as they are referred to now) would certainly be used on the right hand.

Also the "id card/database" will be necessary so that we can "buy or sell, own property, rent property, work, and actually exist in society".

Ickduboise says: "when the mark is established people will be given a choice as to whether or not they want it. It is not time yet for the mark. You will know if you are still here when the mark is offered"

Well, yeah, that is true. The American id card, the UK one and the others all have in common the fact that sure you are given the choice, you don't have to drive, buy, sell, travel anywhere, work, seek medical treatment, live anywhere, visit a solicitor or library or learning institution, or in fact live. In other words you "have Hobson's choice" you either take the MOB or die a slow death from starvation or perhaps from accident or disease that you will not be able to seek medical treatment for. Oh, and of course (I guess not in America as I haven't read of any plans to "fine" people) but in UK they have a plan for the government to progressively steal money from somebody who doesn't want to be "registered" for the MOB/NIR until they are bankrupted. But there is always a choice.

People seem to be concerned about an implant, a subdermal computer chip perhaps, or a microchip implanted in a body organ (I have read about that possibility). My theory is that "function creep" will take care of that idea. Implants will be mandatory in about three generations time (and what choice is a new born baby going to have?) And of course there will be little or no resistance to this because people will have been brought up with enough propaganda to make them feel that it is OK, even desirable.

The big question in my mind is WHY? Why are governments doing this to their people?

It seems from trying to read everything there is to read on the subject that there will be absolutely no "benefits" to anybody who has an id card or is registered on a government database and the "official line", i.e. "combatting terrorism, reducing welfare fraud" is utterly ludicrous and HOW an id card could do any of those things has yet to be explained. So the only "reason" I have come up with is: "Money". It has got to be about money (that of course, and the "delight" it will provide government employees in ordering people around).

This site suggests that this might be a motive, read it and see what you think:

http://www.nickcohen.net/?p=98

So you think this national ID card is the mark? You make an interesting point that the thumbscan and iris scan that is required with this national ID card goes along with the "right hand or forehead" part of the prophecy. Other One said it is actually a facial image instead of an iris scan. It is my understanding that Oklahoma is one of the first states to go to this ID card, and Other One already got it, right Other One? So you think Other One is going to hell because he accepted this ID card? I have a couple of reasons why I don't think this national ID card is the mark.

It is going into effect as we speak, but we are still not a cashless society. I can go out tomorrow and cut someones lawn for 30 bucks, get paid cash, and go to Walmart and buy groceries with my 30 bucks. And I can do all of this without a national ID card. I can still buy and sell. Revelation 13:17 says that I cannot buy or sell without this mark.

Also, where does the name of the beast or the number of his name come into play? 666? How has Other One worshipped the beast or his image according to Revelation 14:9? Also read Revelation 19:20. Have we been deceived by the beast or the false prophet? Won't the antichrist need to appear on the scene before "the mark" will be offered?

A chip implant makes more sense to me. Then people can go to Walmart, do the self checkout, scan their groceries, and then run their hand across the scanner to pay. The chip would also allow people to be tracked by satellite. A card will not allow this, since you could toss your card in the garbage or could probably even disable it, by putting it in the microwave for a short time. You can't put your hand in the microwave.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I don't understand these things and am looking for answers. I guess I need to pray to God for more wisdom. Thanks and God bless.

Biscuit. It looks like I owe you an apology. I indicated that the American Real id would disallow you to buy or sell "save you had the mark (card in this instance)". I was actually thinking of the UK system, the UK system will do that, but the American one - AS YET, and to my knowledge only restricts your movement.

With this system it is definite that, without the "real id" you will not be able to drive a car anywhere, travel anywhere by bus, train or aeroplane, open a bank account, work at a job or enter a federal building. You would of course, be able to get "casual work" where it is not permanent, but if want stability and a steady income, lack of "real id" will prevent this. And of course, as few employers will pay cash to their employees, how could you exist in society without a bank account. If you don't get "real id" - and there is a "ton of" reasons why you shouldn't - you will have to live "the outlaw life". And you can "bet your bottom dollar" that there is already plans to disallow you to "buy or sell, or trade in any way without "real id".

You say that you don't think it is the mark because "we are not a cashless society". While I'm going to play "cat among the pigeons" and say: How about YET! I'm pretty sure that America will be by 2008 or not much longer after. (Just my opinion though). As for "the name of the beast, the number etc.", well the theory is that this is all yet to be revealed. I'm sure that sooner, rather than later, it will be obvious. Probably after people have flocked to get their "assigned identity" though, and "it's too late to stop it now" be be chanted as the excuse for not scrapping the whole idea.

And "worshipping". Well, "you cannot serve both God and Mammon". So, as this system undoubtedly makes everybody "slaves of the state", you will be "required" to worship your master-the state. It could be argued that by taking the id you are agreeing to worship the state anyway.

I looked for something that would indicate that there is a resistance movement out there. I couldn't find anything (maybe I'm just not looking in the right places) but here is a paragraph out of a site that is more about Gun Rights than anything else so it is kind of not what you might be thinking about, but:

"Only one state, Montana, has so far absolutely refused to cooperate with national ID. The Montana legislature passed a law saying they would not go along. However, that will mean that Montana residents are barred from flying without extreme extra scrutiny or from applying for federal benefits because their licenses will be "non-compliant." Although we applaud the courageous Montana legislators, no doubt we'll soon hear many Montanans demanding the "privilege" of having a real national ID card".

And you mentioned a "chip implant". My theory is that a chip implant is the logical conclusion to an id card and the card will be replaced by the microchip "easy as anything" because by the time it comes to that (in two or three generations) people will have been so brainwashed and propagandised (if there is such a word) that they will queue for hours to get it, praising it all the way.

[BlindSeeker]

Blindseeker, you said: "Everyone that has a Social Security number has a trust established in their name in which we become the debtor and the government becomes the controller. It is against that fictitious strawman / trust that the government borrows against from the privately own Federal Reserve Bank. We are made unto government assets/collateral and that is why you cannot take a newborn out of the hospital until it has be assigned a SS#"

Not knowing everything there is to know about the American system I have a couple of questions, namely:

I know that the SSN system has been in America for 60 years or so, but what did it replace?

Actually, the Social Security Act was passed in 1935 making it just over 70 years. It replaced nothing that I know of. Prior to it people were more likely to save for their future retirement and families cared for their aging. Now people just believe the government will somehow take care of them and the kids past the burdens of their elders of to the government as well.

When people are looking for a handout or to be relieved of their obligations they are willing to make concessions. Americans have made a lot. We have gone from

[buckthesystem]

Is there such a thing as a company SSN? (Meaning that you could apply for an SSN in the name of your company and not you personally, just like you can have a "company number" for your car to be registered under so it is not "registered" to your personal name and address). And of course you if you have a place to live you don't really need any "financial transactions", you could always deal in cash.

So if this is the case then "well off" Americans would be able to function without an SSN as they would be able to forego the "child benefit" (or what ever pittance the government is offering back on your child care costs) and could pay tax "through the company" and so keep out of jail.

I really do wonder about "real id". There seems to be absolutely no benefits for the individual in having this "chip capable 'driving licence'". It does not offer them anything that they do not have access to already, and so why is it so popular?

In fact when you start to seek out information about the "capabilities" of the "real id" it is really quite horrifying. It seems that the mantra of "it will fight terrorism and welfare fraud, illegal immigration and be a cure for cancer" (kind of "tongue in cheek about the "cure for cancer" one, but....) that is being chanted regularly by other governments about their own id projects is not even relevant here (just like it isn't relevant anywhere else, in fact it has got to be one of the silliest statements around). So again, why so popular? What do people, or government for that matter, think they are going to get out of it?

[BlindSeeker]

. . . If you don't get "real id" - and there is a "ton of" reasons why you shouldn't - you will have to live "the outlaw life". And you can "bet your bottom dollar" that there is already plans to disallow you to "buy or sell, or trade in any way without "real id". . .

Already everything is controlled and regulated and your obligated to share most of your pie just so you can work . . .

You say that you don't think it is the mark because "we are not a cashless society". While I'm going to play "cat among the pigeons" and say: How about YET! I'm pretty sure that America will be by 2008 or not much longer after. (Just my opinion though).

I am of the same opinion . . . just for the record . . .

As for "the name of the beast, the number etc.", well the theory is that this is all yet to be revealed. I'm sure that sooner, rather than later, it will be obvious. Probably after people have flocked to get their "assigned identity" though, and "it's too late to stop it now" be chanted as the excuse for not scrapping the whole idea.

[BlindSeeker]

Is there such a thing as a company SSN? (Meaning that you could apply for an SSN in the name of your company and not you personally . . .

That would be a FEIN, Federal Employer Identification Number, but the company must be attached to owners with SS#

I really do wonder about "real id". There seems to be absolutely no benefits for the individual in having this "chip capable 'driving licence'". It does not offer them anything that they do not have access to already, and so why is it so popular?

. . . What do people, or government for that matter, think they are going to get out of it??

With the advancement of technology, a policeman may be able to identify who is in a stopped car via an RFID reader.

Who is where in government buildings . . .

Stores as well would want to keep track of who is where and their shopping habits.

It is not a benefit to the individual, rather to government and corporate America.

• Re 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment [radiation], weeping and wailing,
  Re 18:19 And they cast dust [fallout] on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.