The Moon

[nebula]

Here is an example of faith put into practice.

The daughter of the man I mentioned who teaches on hearing from the Lord shared with me a time she and her siblings were invited to a party and asked their father for permission to attend. He instructed them to ask the Lord. So they did, and all of them received no. They were all upset about this, yet they obeyed, even if still grumbling.

The next day or two later, they found out that the party they had wanted to attend was raided by the police for drugs and everyone at the party was arrested, clean or not.

You may despise my faith for my lack of confidence, but I know that the Lord rewards obedience despite how we feel about it.

[nebula]

THen you shouldn't be giving revelations at all. If you aren't confident then Biblically you aren't ready. How can you stand up for the Lord when you don't fully believe it is Him? The simple answer is you can't, at least not adequately. You may have good results sometimes, but this is pragmatism. Just because something yields a good result doesn't mean the methods to get there were Biblically sound.

Back when I was in college, two members of the prayer group I was a part of went on a mision trip to Africa during the January term. We as a group promised to uphold them in prayer. Before they left, as we were praying, one of them had asked the Lord to reveal to us any trouble they might be in so we could pray specifically over that need.

One morning (while these two were still in Africa), I saw in a dream the two of them with some other men tlaking about a some trouble they were encountering and needed to overcome.

At the time, I and another member of the prayer group were taking a Winter Biology course at a Christian environmental center in a different state. When I awoke, I thought immediately that I should wake my friend and tell her my dream so we could pray for them. But what if this was just the fantasies of my head and not a message from the Lord. I wasn't sure. I didn't want to wake her for a false alarm. So I didn't.

According to your wisdom, I did the right thing.

But after our friends returned from Africa and shared with us about the trip, they described a hinderence they had to overcome that perfectly matched what I saw in my dream. Do I need to describe how ashamed I felt? If I had stepped out in faith that the dream was from the Lord and awoke my friend, we could have prayed together about this for them, and then together have contacted the others to increase the prayers. As it ended up, the prayers didn't go out, and they were left alone with regards to spiritual support in this specific matter.

Would you prefer I live my life this way?

Dear Jesus,

I would have acted on the instructions the Holy Spirit gave me, but I wasn't sure it was You. Therefore, I did nothing.

Remind you of a parable and a man with one talent?

[apothanein kerdos]

I really, really tried to be respectful to you and your knowlege of Scripture. I even opened my heart to you there at the end. It was very emotionally and physically draining for me to do so.

But as I read your response to me, all you did was trample my heart to pieces.

If that's how you want to play, then fine.

THis is because you are using emotions in order to dictate how you view and act in this discussion. Emotions, no matter who the person is, are always unstable when we rely on them. In this discussion it has caused you to miss valuable points and even misrepresent my position after I clearly, for the fifth time, spelled it out. You need to move away from making emotions the center of your response because it's causing you to get too involved, to attack the person and not the issue, and quite frankly to be incredibly rude with someone who has a legitimate disagreement with you.

First of all, kid - you are not my spiritual superior. I have been learning about hearing the voice of the Lord from a man who daily puts it into practice. And he is not reluctant, afraid, or whatever your reason is, to share how he has been listening to the Lord.

Faith without works is dead.

What are your "works" with regards to hearing from the Lord?

Principles mean nothing without application. How else can the hearer understand?

All I have asked is that you put your money where your mouth is, yet you refuse to do so.

One example of a time you have interpreted a dream so we can see how all that you say can be put into effect - that's all.

What is the problem with that?

Paul had no problem sharing his experiences; why do you?

Because it's proving a point; you're placing experience above scripture. I'm providing scriptural precedence, evidence from the Bible that what I am claiming is found within the scripture. THis, however, is inadequate. YOu want to hear the experience and not the scripture. The experience is not relevant to the discussion what so ever because scripture has been presented. It is not that I am reluctant, it is that I am proving the point that you inherently place experience over scripture. If this were not so, you would be debating me on the scriptures, not on the experience.

As a side note, I am not trying to be a mentor; however, in case you are forgetting, I am a brother in Christ.

Second, if confidence is required to miister to people, then I'm better off not getting out of bed in the morning. As I have stated on many occassions, I have a struggle with chronic depression, and if you know anything about such things, you should realize that insecurity is one of the side-effects. Emotional instability is another.

I sure hope you don't treat your students the way you treat me.

If I have to conquor these things before I can do anything for the Lord, then I couldn't even volunteer for a work project. Because the last time I did, I wasn't even sure I was applying the coat of paint properly on the wall! I am not confident with interacting with people; therefore, I couldn't even work at a soup kitchen because I might mess up. Why should the confidence factor only apply to hearing the Lord? Are there any accounts of anyone in the Bible doing anything with insecurity? Going to battle? Teaching? Preaching? Serving?

Maybe the problem is that you are doing the battle. You are stating this, not me. You are stating that you do battle against these things. The simple fact is our confidence is not within ourselves, it is instead within the Lord. That is what I have been advocating. When something comes from God, confidence (though fear is most certainly with it) comes with it. Confidence is the ability to act upon what you know to be true...it is not a feeling but an act. It is having the faith that what God is saying to you is 100% true, and you're 100% sure that it comes from God. This does not negate that there will be emotions involved, it merely states that we have to be absolutely sure before we commit to something, whether it be serving the poor or providing a prophecy. I find it absolutely disturbing that you are finding fault with the idea I am presenting, that we must consult God to the point we are 100% sure before acting. It is almost as if you are saying we should act in our own timing, not God's. As I have pointed out, anytime a person acted for the Lord in the Bible, though many fears and emotions were there, two things were consistent:

1) They were 100% confident the Lord had spoken to them

2) They were 100% confident in what He had said

Though they may not have been confident about the outcome, they knew their mission and their mission Giver...that is what I'm advocating. WHy this is wrong to you baffles me.

As for "faith without works," this passage isn't going to work with me on this subject. The entire context of James is so that our faith is manifested in our works. WIth me, that is the case (though not always, in fact, everyday I fail to show my faith in my works in numerous ways)...but we are debating a doctrinal issue and thus scripture is always going to trump experience. That is simply how it is. It is not that i don't desire to give experiences, it is that there is absolutely no need.

Show me your faith by your works.

What evidence do you have for your faith?

I don't need to because I already have to others who count. I do not mean that to insult you or diminish you, I mean that as to those that needed help I helped. To those I debate with theology and doctrine over the scriptures, it is not needed. Scripture should speak for itself. YOu are attempting to attack me (once again, I am getting quite use to this) when I am trying to keep this on scripture.

Here is an example of faith put into practice.

The daughter of the man I mentioned who teaches on hearing from the Lord shared with me a time she and her siblings were invited to a party and asked their father for permission to attend. He instructed them to ask the Lord. So they did, and all of them received no. They were all upset about this, yet they obeyed, even if still grumbling.

The next day or two later, they found out that the party they had wanted to attend was raided by the police for drugs and everyone at the party was arrested, clean or not.

You may despise my faith for my lack of confidence, but I know that the Lord rewards obedience despite how we feel about it.

And Joseph smith prophecied there would be a Civil War within the thirty years after he gave that prophecy, and it came true....so what?

As I have pointed out, this is pragmatic. "Well I did this and it achieved the result I wanted, therefore my method must be true." This is not, however, always biblically correct. We might act out of confidence and the Lord might get His way...but it establishes a dangerous precedence where we act out of confidence and eventually begin teaching false teachings. An over emphasis upon the "Holy Spirit" (which it seems is quickly becomming the name for intuition and gut feelings) devalues scriptural precedence for such events. For instance:

I know of a man that was seeking counsel on how to raise build his business. He had a dream and asked God for an interpretation. The dream was that his son had grown horns and was running through his (the father's) business and tearing the walls down. The father interpreted this to mean that his son was the cause of the faulty business. He consulted with his pastor and the pastor gave the same interpretation. Two weeks later the son was out of hte house and on his own. A year later the business began to flop and the father began to pray God and asked Him to simply provide. The father eventually began to realize that, no matter what, God would take care of him. He never accepted the son back, and the business finally flopped.

I promise you that neither one of these men were 100% confident in the interpretation, but it seemed to be the most obvious choice. Because both of these men used your method, a father and son were split apart. Though this is an extreme (and true) example, this shows the danger in what you are proposing. Even if it had turned out the business succeeded after the son was kicked out...where was the prayer? Where was the searching of the scripture to see if the conclusion matched what scripture had to say? Where was the guidance? No where to be found. So, just because we do something and it happens to work out does not necessarily mean we did it the correct way...though God can work past our fallibility, we are also limited by it and it can cause us to go against what God is calling us to do.

Back when I was in college, two members of the prayer group I was a part of went on a mision trip to Africa during the January term. We as a group promised to uphold them in prayer. Before they left, as we were praying, one of them had asked the Lord to reveal to us any trouble they might be in so we could pray specifically over that need.

One morning (while these two were still in Africa), I saw in a dream the two of them with some other men tlaking about a some trouble they were encountering and needed to overcome.

At the time, I and another member of the prayer group were taking a Winter Biology course at a Christian environmental center in a different state. When I awoke, I thought immediately that I should wake my friend and tell her my dream so we could pray for them. But what if this was just the fantasies of my head and not a message from the Lord. I wasn't sure. I didn't want to wake her for a false alarm. So I didn't.

According to your wisdom, I did the right thing.

Wrong, you did not do the right thing. If you look back through my posts, I have advocated the following:

1) Deep prayer and consultation to see if what we have said is true

2) Prayer for revelation from the Lord

3) Searching the scripture to see if it matches up, or if the conclusion matches up with scripture

You did none of the following. I mean, if you think about it, a call to pray for someone is almost an immediate action simply because it does nto violate scripture (in fact, it is highly scriptural) and if it is for protection and God's Will it could nto come from any other spirit. So no, you did not follow the Biblical method I am presenting at all.

Dear Jesus,

I would have acted on the instructions the Holy Spirit gave me, but I wasn't sure it was You. Therefore, I did nothing.

Remind you of a parable and a man with one talent?

Again, this is not what I'm advocating. What I'm advocating is, "Lord, I'm not sure if it is you. Reveal Your Will to me."

The simple fact is, if we act on what we are not sure is Christ, then we will not always be acting for Christ...and as Chuck Colson states, if we aren't acting for Christ then we're acting for Satan.

[EricH]

Let us have some balance here. God created us with emotions and intellect. He expects us to use them both to His glory. Unfortunately both have been tarnished by sin, so neither is ultimately and absolutely dependable. Both need to be guided by the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

Let me encourage everyone here with this passages:

But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:39 NASB

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

John 13:34-35 NASB

Whether one believes they have an intellectual handle on the faith, or they believe God has spoken to them through movings of the Spirit, neither will avail us anything if we do not treat each other as God would have us to do. Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 13.

[apothanein kerdos]

Let us have some balance here. God created us with emotions and intellect. He expects us to use them both to His glory. Unfortunately both have been tarnished by sin, so neither is ultimately and absolutely dependable. Both need to be guided by the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

Let me encourage everyone here with this passages:

But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:39 NASB

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

John 13:34-35 NASB

Whether one believes they have an intellectual handle on the faith, or they believe God has spoken to them through movings of the Spirit, neither will avail us anything if we do not treat each other as God would have us to do. Paul said as much in 1 Corinthians 13.

Agreed, thank you for the much needed reminder.

[nebula]

I have had to step away from this thread, pray, and seek counsel on this before I could respond. I almost quit, but the need to offer my defense plagued me. So I am writing this here.

THis is because you are using emotions in order to dictate how you view and act in this discussion.

Maybe the problem is that you are doing the battle. You are stating this, not me. You are stating that you do battle against these things. The simple fact is our confidence is not within ourselves, it is instead within the Lord.

Let me make myself clear here. I have chronic depression. If you took a class in psychology, you would know that chronic depression comes under the larger heading of "clinical mental disorders." So, if you must, I have a clinical mental disorder. This means, unless the Lord supernaturally heals me, I am stuck with this mental disorder/illness the same as I am stuck with my physical autoimmune disease illnesses. Now, the Lord has healed me from what has been temred "major depressive episodes" - and that was no small deal! But he hasn't removed the crhonic depression from me any more than He removed Paul's "thorn in the flesh" from him.

So, when I say, "I struggle with chronic depression," it's because I would rather not say, "I have chronic depression," for that implies to me that I'm wallowing in it. But by saying, "I struggle," that is my way of saying I acknowledge the condition I am up against, but I am doing what I can to overcome in - I may fail in the attempt, but at least I am making the effort.

And since Jesus commends those who "overcome", I see that taking the initiative to overcome is a Scriptural precedent. Do you agree or disagree?

So, as far as my emotions go, yes I do have a problem with them, and it's tied in with my chronic depression problem. Yes, my emotions are unstable. I have no shame admitting this - or I'd go crazy living in denial of an obvious fact. Yes, they interfere with my thinking, and yes it is annoying. Yet to be told that I have no business being involved in a discussion because of my emotions hits me hard in one of my greatest weaknesses. I wish I could control and temper my emotions; but that just ain't happening, and it's not for lack of effort on my part.

Paul says we battle against flesh and blood, Paul speaks of disciplining ourselves, Jesus mentioned overcoming. So then, should I not "struggle" and "do battle" against this thing?

As for trusting in the Lord, if I were not trusting in the Lord, I wouldn't have the strength or even the will to come this far. I would have committed myself to a mental institute and let the doctors drug me up to treat my problem. But my trust is in the Lord to strengthen me through this, that His grace is sufficient for me and His power is made perfect through weakness. I know that because of my pain I have been able to minister to those who are likewise in pain - something the left-brained person that I am could never do had I not been so completely broken.

So please do not regard my emotional outbursts as something that can be "fixed."

If, however, you have any guidelines for how to overcome my emotional explosions, to bring them into submission, then I am all ears. Frankly, I'm getting tired myself of not being able to think clearly every time I am under pressure. If you can tell me practical step-by-step applications of Scripture, I would appreciate it.

[nebula]

Concerning Experiences

If the Lord does not value experiences, why is the Bible full of them?

Let me explain.

How much of the Bible is written about people

[nebula]

As far as Confidence goes, one of the people I asked for councel from stated this:

He seems to be assuming emotional stability when that is not really addressed in scripture. Nowhere does it say that any of the people in the Bible were 100% confident in what they heard and certainly not 100% of the time.

Action can be done against and in spite of emotions though it helps when supported by them. I would not presume to read into scripture that everyone who acted according to God's word did so through total confidence in what God said. If that were the case, Moses would have entered the promised land as leader instead of Joshua, Abram would have stayed away from Egypt, David would have stayed away from Bathsheba, and Sampson would have kept clear of Delilah.

Sure, there are times of supernatural confidence like Moses before the Red Sea and yet that same instance records God asking Moses why he is crying out to the Lord about the situation. I remember that every person mentioned in the Bible is human and thus subject to human emotions that can be extremely discouraging. And yet, God still uses people to accomplish His work in this world. He knows our weaknesses and flaws yet works to transform us into His own likeness. That is where our action on His word comes into play.

What she said got me thinking.

When the prophets said, "Thus saith the Lord," were they saying so on faith or fact?

Which leads to the question: does the certainty of faith require all elimination of doubt, questions, and uncertainties?

I think of Esther presenting herself before the king knowing it could cost her her life. Her actios speak strong for her faith in the Lord to bring her through, yet if her heart wasn't beating faster than normal during this time, I would be quite surprised.

The same goes for Abigail when she approached David. Faith? Yes. Sure enough that her sympathetic nervous system wasn't activated? Most likely not.

I thought of what she said about Moses. You know, that is an interesting point. Why was it so easy for Him to disobey the word of the Lord to speak to the rock?

Likewise, why did Elijah fear for life from Jezebel's threat right after the miracle on Mt. Carmel? Elijah asked the Lord for fire, and the Lord sent fire. Elijah asked the Lord for rain, and it rained. Jezebel threatens his life, and he flees for his life. Does that make sense?

No, the Bible does not reveal what people were thinking as they followed the Lord. To claim 100% confidence is nothing more than an assumption.

[nebula]

Let us have some balance here. . . .

Thank-you for your wisdom, EricH!