Questions Regarding "Prophets"

[refugepsa91]

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful

colossians 3:15

[eric]

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful

colossians 3:15

AMEN, angel.

[Christ's Free Servant]

I don't think God will prevent someone from going in the rapture just because they have doubts about it's reality.

I like that one!! Thanks for making me smile today!!

Actually, I lean towards post-trib, but I'm not hard-fast either way. I think there are good arguments on both sides or even in the middle (mid-trib). I trust God will do the right thing, you know, and I'll be happy (at peace) with whatever he chooses or however he chooses to do it. I am emotionally torn on the matter, because I would love to go be with Jesus and be out of this world of sin and suffering, but at the same time, I personally believe when God's judgments begin to fall that there will be a revival and a great harvest of souls, and I would really like to be here for that. Actually, I've had dreams that I think could be interpreted as the church being raptured, so I'm definitely not ruling out that possibility. I'm not one to debate the subject, though, because I generally feel those discussions are fruitless. I'll leave that to the debaters. I was just letting you know where I stand on the subject, but I like what you said, too.

[LadyRaven]

I'm open mindedly skeptical or skeptically open minded, however you want to say this. I believe the cannon of scripture is closed, therefore there will never be anything else which is to be regarded as highly as scripture. Therefore any "Prophecy" which gets spoken to me will be subject to that test first. If it contradicts it and what I understand it to be saying, then I pretty much file it with all the other noise I hear from the culture.

If it doesn't, I tend to have it filed in my mind with the latest stock market predictions until I know that the person's "Prophecies" are proven to be 100 percent trust worthy. Since a prophet who speaks falsehood is not prophecying from God.

What I end up having trouble knowing what to do with is all these "prophets" who end up saying things that the cultural observers could be saying. What is it that they are trying to get across? WHO exactly are they speaking to? WHAT am I supposed to do about their message? Especially whent he message seems to be tied to theology I just don't believe in?

[David H.]

Okay, but I think the point was that he did not call himself a prophet. Saying, "the Lord said to me, Go, prophesy to my people" is not the same thing as saying, "I am a prophet." I think the idea is, if you have to tell people who you are, you probably are not that. It's an issue of self-glorification verses simply humility.

I think Ovedya makes a really good point with this simple rule of thumb. People see prophecy as the highest office. Therefore, they love to proclaim themselves a prophet. It's the same thing when they say, "The Lord told me ..." It's not that prophets cannot say that. They do in the Bible. But why not just say what it is that you think God told you, and let others judge whether or not it comes from God. Let them be the ones to say, "I think God revealed that to you." That was Jesus' approach throughout his ministry. I don't think he EVER publically said, "God told me..." He told his disciples he only spoke what the father told him to speak; but that was not a proclaimation. That was insight given to his inner circle of associates. He didn't run around calling himself a prophet, and he didn't have to couch his words with "God told me." He just said, and people responded to the quality of what he said.

One who makes a big point out of his being a prophet almost certainly isn't. There is no biblical example of that kind of behavior because it's all based in pride. Just try telling one of those people you don't think he or she is a prophet, and see how angry the person becomes.

There is a saying that goes like this:

Question; Where is gold found?

Answer: Wherever the gold is.

That's good, too. If the person's words are from God, then the pure quality of those words ought to be able to get attention. If they don't, then they're not gold. If they're not gold, they're not God.

Every person who has the Spirit of God within them has the gift of prophecy.

I don't think that's true. Paul says SOME are called to be prophets, and some are called to other things. He never says all the gifts of the Spirit are to all saints.

They can speak the very words of God without even realizing it.

That's good, too. Look at Caiaphas. He wasn't even a prophet and he spoke a true prophecy without noticing it. O.K. technically he was a prophet for about three seconds; but he didn't know it, and he was an unlikely voice for God to use. But God can speak through a Jack Ass if he wants. He's done it.

As for someone suggesting "schools for prophets," I don't recall any of the Biblical prophets ever taking a course to learn how. Life was the course, and God probably wouldn't pick the "school's" top grad anyway. So, what are they going to prophesy without content? We always want to institutionalize anything good. It's part of the human condition. Like Peter wanting to pitch a tent on the Mount of Transfiguration. Let's create an office. Everyone should have this.

Most of us would love to be God's direct spokesman. (Most, not all.) If we try to attain the role by a group that helps nurture us in that direction, we're only feeding our ego's need to be great. Most of us would love to be significant. Who aspires to insignificance; but in the area of prophecy that can lead us to hope so hard that we're getting messages from God that we too quickly assume we are. Better to let God do the calling and the training for that role.

As for "Any church claiming to be the only true church of God must be led by a prophet, who has been called of God," any such church should be stoned (or is "stoned") for the being the epitome of hubris -- extreme arrogance. Any church of that kind led by a "prophet" who says he is called of God is a cult.

[David H.]

Scripture trumps revelation.

I thought scripture was revelation.

I [prophesied warnings of Katrina] for one. I know that is going to sound pious, and whatever, but you can search this website as well as a few other christian forums for it. Including one dream that I posted before Katrina hit, in which I described watching an eagle and american flag, each cut out of what i believe to be granite, each being packed by giant whirlwinds, which at the time I called tornadoes, and then they were dumped into the ditch by a forklift after the tornadoes dropped them.

What good is a prophecy like that? How would it warn anyone? It's so vague it's useless (unless you left out the most important parts in restating it). It doesn't say where the event will happen. It misnames what the event will be by saying it's a tornado, not a hurricane. There is no way for the prophecy to help a single soul. All you have is an eagle and flag (the U.S.) hit by a whirlwind. No date. It's a big country, so that's exactly like saying, "It's going to rain" without giving the time and place. Of course it is ... somewhere sometime. And "dumped into a ditch by a forklift"? That helps.

Can't God raise prophets who are not self-proclaimed who speak intelligible ACTIONABLE words?

I also put out paperwork at my job in which I prophesied a major hurricane, which I was confident enough to call either a category 4 or 5 storm, hitting new orleans and killing hundreds and destroying much of the city less than 8 months before it happened.

Now, that's a little more helpful. However, "confident enough" seems to put it in the realm of Jean Dixon.

There was nothing inaccurate about the first dream I mentioned,which I actually had way back before Ivan the year before Katrina. It came true exactly as expected

You mean the storm was delivered by forklift?

First, you apply it to Katrina, then you apply it to Ivan. Proof that it's the kind of prophecy that you can apply to any hurricane that comes along during any year that follows ... so long as you're willing to call a hurricane a tornado and allow minor mistakes. I can make those kinds of prophecies all day long without God's help. The only reason I don't is that they're useless.

The fact that every time I try to put something like this out ahead of time, it gets immediately censured, and especially by "christians", that doesn't help the situation either. So I hope you'll understand my situation.

I sure understand it. You're excoriated because you make predictions about alarming events that are as vague as "It's going to rain" without a time or place. Then when the first one comes along -- Ivan -- that's the one. And then when the second one comes along -- Katrina -- that's the one, too. And if Alfred hits tomorrow, well why not include it as well. You get to apply it to any hurricane you want (even though it was supposed to be a tornado). There are hurricanes every year, so you're certain to be right.

I want to go on record right now as predicting that I envision a great eagle getting its tail-feathers burned. The next time we have a heat wave like the one last week, that's the one I envisioned. You read it first here. It's on record.

Why won't you all take me seriously? It's going to happen, and when it does, I'm going to send you all right back to this post to know I predicted it.

Edited August 10, 2006 by David Haggith

[David H.]

With many of todays "prophets" "prophecies" as we just saw are often vague enough or predictable enough that they are not from God, but a good weather caster.

If one watches the stock market long enough and close enough a crash can be predicted as well, but not necessarily how low. Then one can go claim they made a prediction, just not as severe or worse than they said.

The wording is also changable. One minute they say tornadoes, but when a hurricane happens, they attribute their prophecy to that. God is perfect. He does not say one thing and change his mind and do something else.

I can say amen to that.

[Guest zevah]

OK, WELL THERE WAS ALOT TO READ and in simple terms, u will know them by their fruits. If u are in doubt about how to discern, then i suggest that u ask the lord himself who is more than able to provide u with an answer and a prophetic word, we dont need words from prophets the lord Jesus is the greatest prophet, HE was the only one that had the 5 gold ministry Eph 4:11. i know that there are a few things we need to observe about a prophet, they have credibility, character of christ and fruit. They never give themselves a title, if they are true, cause they do not want to be identified, their gifting will qualify them and the lord has a way of witnessing who is true and who is false and jesus never gave himself a title. I am very weary and cautious of whom to read and what to read. I prefer to speak with them face to face, not in the internet, u can say anything and no one knows who its written by. Anywys, i hope that is a simplistic way of clarifying it, if u wanna know more, there is a book called, THE ELIJAH TASK, gives information regarding the difference between the office of a prophet and pple who are prophetically gifted, it will give u a clear undrsetandiing, i could teach and preach it, but u may wish to look into this book for urself.

I have some questions regarding today's self-professed "prophets." Please answer according to your thoughts on the matter, and provide Scriptural/historical evidence in support of your statements where you feel it is appropriate:

Conservatively there are perhaps several thousand websites on the internet authored by self-professed "prophets," but let's just say for the sake of argument that there are only a total of a thousand. Using the tools the Lord gave us to discern - namely the Bible, the gift of discernment, and the inner sense from the Spirit of Truth (Which is the Holy Spirit) - how can believers "weed out" those that are false among this number?

Secondly, considering the sheer number of websites out there, how can believers discern between them to be sure there are no conflicting messages? If even, using our conservative figure of a thousand, we were able to spend the time reading all the "prophecies," is it even possible to compare and contrast the messages to be able to determine which are true and which are false?

Third, can all "prophets" prophesy with variations to their messages? What if some conflict with others? Which do we favor and which do we toss aside?

When warning the apostles about false persons the Lord Jesus used two terms: False prophets, and false Christ's (cf. Matt. 7:15; 24:11; 24; Mark 13:22; Luke 6:26). This seems to imply that there are actually two categories of false persons, in terms of who claims to be speaking on behalf of Christ.

A "false Christ" it seems, is a person who comes in the name of the Lord and claims position of the Messiah. That is, he assumes a position of absolute leadership, setting himself up as a "savior" in addition to, or in replacement of the risen Savior, Jesus Christ. The passage that immediately comes to my mind is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, in which Paul describes "the lawless one," who is anti-Christ, who establishes himself as Messiah.

However, a "false prophet" can essentially be anyone who comes in the name of the Lord, and who "prophesies" according to a vision or a dream. Typically most Christians point out the verses in the Old Testament where God warned Israel of the false prophets, saying that if any of them prophesies falsely (Usually determined to be a specific dated prediction) then that one should be rejected. So now read the following verses and consider my next few questions:

Jeremiah 14:16: "And Jehovah said to me, The prophets prophesy falsehood in My name; I did not send them or command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a false vision and divination and a worthless thing and the deceit of their own heart.

Therefore thus says Jehovah concerning the prophets who prophesy in My name, although I did not send them, yet they say, A sword and famine will not be in this land: By sword and by famine those prophets will be consumed.

And the people to whom they prophesy will be cast out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and there will be no one to bury them - them, their wives, and their sons and their daughters - and I will pour out their own wickedness on them.: ""

The context of those verses is basically the Lord telling Jeremiah that there will be severe punishment for Isreal. Jeremiah tells the Lord, "Ah, Lord Jehovah! Indeed, the prophets say to them, You will not see sword, nor will you have famine, for I will give you assured peace in this place." (v. 13)

From these verses there appears to me at least another aspect of discerning a false prophet, then. In this case, the false prophets are saying "prosperity" when the Lord has clearly said "punishment." So my questions are as follows:

1) Can Christians discern a false prophet by the words of their prophecy, without looking specifically for a date or a time by which we can judge a prophecy true or false by its fulfillment or passing?

2) We have seen and heard many messages from self-professed "prophets" on the web which condemn America and warn the church of the Lord's impending judgment on this country specifically. So, given the verses from Jeremiah, what if the Lord's intention for America is something different? And in context with my previous question regarding conflicting messages, how do we not know that prophecies concerning impending doom upon America are not false?

3) In the verses from Jeremiah there are prophets who prophesy prosperity for Israel, not just one. In that case, Jeremiah, who received the direct word of the Lord, was true, and the false prophets (plural) were false. If there were one single prophecy given out of the conservative thousand that I mentioned above that contradicts all the others, should we consider the one more than the others?

4) Seems to me that Israel most likely would have assumed Jeremiah the false prophet, and they would have listened more to the abundance of prophets that spoke good things rather than bad; and they did. What does that say about the many thousands of "prophesies" that Christians readily accept as true, without discernment?

5) I found it interesting in Jeremiah 14:14 that the Lord used the term, "...and the deceit of their own heart." That sounds to me like the false prophets prophesied falsely because of something that they conjured up in their own minds, because of desire, and because that which they prophesied was what they really wanted to happen. Even that they might have actually convinced themselves that their prophesies were true because that desire was so strong. In other words, they even deceived themselves! So how do we know that the same is not the case with today's so-called "prophets"? How can we be so sure that the "human elements," with all of its hangups, etc., of the person speaking the "prophesy" are not what are guiding the prophecy?

Just so you all are aware, I am not fully convinced that any of those that call themselves prophets in this age fulfill the same function as the prophets in the Old Testament. My opinion is that the dynamic of the office has changed because of the Lord's having fulfilled most of the prophesies concerning Him, and that the ones concerning Israel and the church that have yet to be fulfilled will be done so in due time. We can discuss this further, if you like. But for now I would like to see the bulk of this thread addressing the questions I have put to you all.

Grace to you,

Ovedya

[Guest yod]

There is no basis for supposing the prophets were primarily concerned with events thousands of years in their future, as some would have us believe.

Rufus...you've been promoting this idea as if we are just supposed to fall in line and swallow.

It's poppycock. There are dozens of verses that aren't fulfilled "in decades" and more that are far off than are near. How many would you like me to show you before you stop this inane arrogance that pops up when you disagree with someone?

Give me a number. If what you are saying is true, then one prophecy that took a thousand years or more would be enough to get you to stop, right?

[EricH]

Why don't we all take a little while off? Closed