rapture

[Ovedya]

...But, should we pronounce the judgment of condemnation upon a person for believing a doctrine that the scriptures have not stated is an essential? For those who would say yes, then are you not elevating the non-essentials to the level of essentials? It would be like a person condemning another to damnation because the latter believes in pre-trib rapture (or post, or mid, or non-cessationism). Since the scriptures do not pronounce judgment of condemnation for a rapture view or a view on the gifts, then neither should we -- and neither should we concerning predestination, election, millennial views, which day to worship on, charismatic gifts, etc., if others hold views different than we do on these issues. (SOURCE: http://www.carm.org/uni/christianbeuni.htm )

Also: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm

[Ovedya]

...But, should we pronounce the judgment of condemnation upon a person for believing a doctrine that the scriptures have not stated is an essential? For those who would say yes, then are you not elevating the non-essentials to the level of essentials? It would be like a person condemning another to damnation because the latter believes in pre-trib rapture (or post, or mid, or non-cessationism). Since the scriptures do not pronounce judgment of condemnation for a rapture view or a view on the gifts, then neither should we -- and neither should we concerning predestination, election, millennial views, which day to worship on, charismatic gifts, etc., if others hold views different than we do on these issues. (SOURCE: http://www.carm.org/uni/christianbeuni.htm )

Also: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm

To be absolutely clear, I do not see where anyone here, inluding myself, has pronounced judgment of condemnation upon any person here, and I do not see how you came to that conclusion.

It is not at all hard to arrive at such a conclusion when you call it "heresy" and "a lie from Satan," etc. Doing so attaches the "Satanic" stigma to the person with whom you disagree (Which is pretty much any person who espouses anything other than post-trib doctrine).

Secondly, while carm.org can at times be an adequate reference, it is not the final decision making authority.

I never claimed it was. However, most other noted and reputable teachers and institutions agree that the field of Eschatology largely deals with the non-essentials of the faith. So the cited portion above is perfectly valid to this aspect of the discussion. In taking your hard-line position against the other rapture views, and with such loaded language, you are raising a non-essential position to the level of the essential.

We are to search the scriptures to prove all things to determine the truth, depending upon the Holy Spirit's guidance with the Word.

Please cite the Scripture for that teaching. If we are to search the Scriptures to determine the truth, depending on the Holy Spirit's guidance with the Word, then isn't the truth of the Word dependent upon the Holy Spirit's guidance? That doesn't make any sense to me. The Scriptures are God's very breath, according to 2 Tim. 3:16, so they should stand alone.

Thirdly, what is taking place here is challenging and exposing the pre-tribulation rapture lie that some here have taken offense to because they cannot defend it scripturally.

I don't see that happening. I see that non-essential doctrinal positions are being demonized simply because you happen to disagree with them. I see that you are calling them heretical when they are not..

[Isa]

...But, should we pronounce the judgment of condemnation upon a person for believing a doctrine that the scriptures have not stated is an essential? For those who would say yes, then are you not elevating the non-essentials to the level of essentials? It would be like a person condemning another to damnation because the latter believes in pre-trib rapture (or post, or mid, or non-cessationism). Since the scriptures do not pronounce judgment of condemnation for a rapture view or a view on the gifts, then neither should we -- and neither should we concerning predestination, election, millennial views, which day to worship on, charismatic gifts, etc., if others hold views different than we do on these issues. (SOURCE: http://www.carm.org/uni/christianbeuni.htm )

Also: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm

To be absolutely clear, I do not see where anyone here, inluding myself, has pronounced judgment of condemnation upon any person here, and I do not see how you came to that conclusion. Secondly, while carm.org can at times be an adequate reference, it is not the final decision making authority. We are to search the scriptures to prove all things to determine the truth, depending upon the Holy Spirit's guidance with the Word. Thirdly, what is taking place here is challenging and exposing the pre-tribulation rapture lie that some here have taken offense to because they cannot defend it scripturally. Nevertheless, this is what scripture calls us to do, and even tho it may be an unpopular thing for some, we ultimately must abide by the Holy Spirit's leading and obey God and not man.

And who has the last say that it is right or wrong obviously you guys seem to be saying alot

A question has been posted yet that question has not been answered because Satan is to busy accusing the brethren of heresy.

I would like to know who are the armies that come back with Christ at His second coming?

[Isa]

And who has the last say that it is right or wrong obviously you guys seem to be saying alot

A question has been posted yet that question has not been answered because Satan is to busy accusing the brethren of heresy.

I would like to know who are the armies that come back with Christ at His second coming?

They are the dead in Christ coming with him from heaven to receive their heavenly bodies at the resurrection of the just 1st thess 4:13-18

Can you please explain that in more detail for this Anglo-Saxon.

[Ovedya]

And who has the last say that it is right or wrong obviously you guys seem to be saying alot

A question has been posted yet that question has not been answered because Satan is to busy accusing the brethren of heresy.

I would like to know who are the armies that come back with Christ at His second coming?

They are the dead in Christ coming with him from heaven to receive their heavenly bodies at the resurrection of the just 1st thess 4:13-18

Can you please explain that in more detail for this Anglo-Saxon.

Sure, when we die our soul goes to heaven, at the resurrection we receive new heavenly bodies just like the one Jesus was resurrected into,1st cor 15:35-50 and 1st john 3:2.

At the post trib 2nd coming when Christ returns those in heaven return with him to receive their heavenly bodies 1st cor 15:20-23,1st cor 15:51-53 and 1st thess 4:13-18.

Those are the ones in heaven returning with christ at his coming revelation 19:11-21 ,we which are alive and remain will be translated into our heavenly bodies at that point aswell 1st cor 15:51-53,1st thess 4:13-18 and 1st john 3:2.

We will be raised at the last day john 6:39,40,44,and 54 not 7 yrs b4 it.

At the post tribulational return of Jesus.

So that's two separate raptures several years apart. Can you prove that they take place so far apart?

[Isa]

And who has the last say that it is right or wrong obviously you guys seem to be saying alot

A question has been posted yet that question has not been answered because Satan is to busy accusing the brethren of heresy.

I would like to know who are the armies that come back with Christ at His second coming?

They are the dead in Christ coming with him from heaven to receive their heavenly bodies at the resurrection of the just 1st thess 4:13-18

Can you please explain that in more detail for this Anglo-Saxon.

Sure, when we die our soul goes to heaven, at the resurrection we receive new heavenly bodies just like the one Jesus was resurrected into,1st cor 15:35-50 and 1st john 3:2.

At the post trib 2nd coming when Christ returns those in heaven return with him to receive their heavenly bodies 1st cor 15:20-23,1st cor 15:51-53 and 1st thess 4:13-18.

Those are the ones in heaven returning with christ at his coming revelation 19:11-21 ,we which are alive and remain will be translated into our heavenly bodies at that point aswell 1st cor 15:51-53,1st thess 4:13-18 and 1st john 3:2.

We will be raised at the last day john 6:39,40,44,and 54 not 7 yrs b4 it.

At the post tribulational return of Jesus.

That only explains one part of the army, because it say armies.

[Isa]

Sure, when we die our soul goes to heaven, at the resurrection we receive new heavenly bodies just like the one Jesus was resurrected into,1st cor 15:35-50 and 1st john 3:2.

At the post trib 2nd coming when Christ returns those in heaven return with him to receive their heavenly bodies 1st cor 15:20-23,1st cor 15:51-53 and 1st thess 4:13-18.

Those are the ones in heaven returning with christ at his coming revelation 19:11-21 ,we which are alive and remain will be translated into our heavenly bodies at that point aswell 1st cor 15:51-53,1st thess 4:13-18 and 1st john 3:2.

We will be raised at the last day john 6:39,40,44,and 54 not 7 yrs b4 it.

At the post tribulational return of Jesus.

So that's two separate raptures several years apart. Can you prove that they take place so far apart?

ummm,you have misread something somewhere.There is one rapture and it is at the posttrib resurrection of the just,which is at the post trib 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

Read again you clearly have mistaken my statement.

There is no other rapture b4 this one,this is the 1st resurrection to which the just are resurrected and we are translated.

the 2nd resurrection is the resurrection of the wicked after the millennium to face judgement.

So when Jesus places His feet on the Mount of Olives do we receive our heavenly bodies there and then or do we have to wait awhile?

[Isa]

And who has the last say that it is right or wrong obviously you guys seem to be saying alot

A question has been posted yet that question has not been answered because Satan is to busy accusing the brethren of heresy.

I would like to know who are the armies that come back with Christ at His second coming?

They are the dead in Christ coming with him from heaven to receive their heavenly bodies at the resurrection of the just 1st thess 4:13-18

Can you please explain that in more detail for this Anglo-Saxon.

Sure, when we die our soul goes to heaven, at the resurrection we receive new heavenly bodies just like the one Jesus was resurrected into,1st cor 15:35-50 and 1st john 3:2.

At the post trib 2nd coming when Christ returns those in heaven return with him to receive their heavenly bodies 1st cor 15:20-23,1st cor 15:51-53 and 1st thess 4:13-18.

Those are the ones in heaven returning with christ at his coming revelation 19:11-21 ,we which are alive and remain will be translated into our heavenly bodies at that point aswell 1st cor 15:51-53,1st thess 4:13-18 and 1st john 3:2.

We will be raised at the last day john 6:39,40,44,and 54 not 7 yrs b4 it.

At the post tribulational return of Jesus.

So that's two separate raptures several years apart. Can you prove that they take place so far apart?

big sigh ...

It's not two separate raptures as you state. There is only one event that we informally call the rapture, that is what happens to those who are still alive during the resurrection of the Church. Since there is only one resurrection of the Church, there can only be one "rapture" (catching away, translation, harpadzometha, raptiere, etc).

When the Church is resurrected, we are united with our immortal, incorruptable bodies and gather around the Lord in the air as He returns.

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery;

we will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed

. 1 Corinthians 15:50-52

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who have died, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have died in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until

the coming of the Lord

, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be

caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the

coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our

gathering together to Him

, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless ... 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

There is only one resurrection of the Church - the "first resurrection" (Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power Rev 20:6). During this resurrection, we are united with our immortal bodies and gather around the Lord in the air as He returns. Not two events. One. We are those clouds...

And BTW, this is hard to do in a pre-trib and mid-trib eschatology.

But it does not require a post-trib eschatology either.

shalom

So do we see Him coming on the clouds?

or Are we apart of that army?

Is it every soul that believes in Christ or God's promises in that army?

Edited November 19, 2007 by Isa

[Ovedya]

First, my position is not a hardline position. It is a biblical position.

You are taking a hardline position that all other rapture views are heresy, and have eluded to their promoters as being heretics (destroyers of the church).

Consider the fact that all the other rapture views are no less "Biblical" than your own. Simply stating that they are not biblical does not make them so.

The post-tribulation catching away of the saints is the only one that can be proven by scripture validation with authority.

That does not appear to be true. Otherwise, why does this exist as a point of contention among the saints. You claimed yourself that most of the other message boards had discussions like this, and others have claimed to have interacted similarly with other Christians over this issue. It's obvious then, that post-trib is not the only view that can be proven by Scripture.

Secondly, so-called "reputable teachers" can be wrong and have been wrong, thus the reason for so many false doctrines and denominational splits, and denominations in general.

That's an interesting take on the subject of divisions in the Body. See, normally what happens is, a person or a group of people disagree with the doctrinal teachings of a certain sect and then go out an create their own division. But rather than blame the person or group for dividing themselves you are saying that it's the sect at fault for being wrong in the first place. I would guess that, in such a scenario, a certain amount of pride in believing "we are right and pure" is involved with the splitting party. That still doesn't fall far from the Galatians 5:20 tree, does it?

Thirdly, from where I am sitting, I believe you are out of touch with what is happening, because in my area, entire denominations are splitting up because of this teaching as biblical fact, and pew members are leaving, so I would hardly call this a non-essential doctrine of the faith, tho it sure sounds nice to itching ears. When churches start teaching this as fact and doctrine, it discredits the entire Bible because this doctrine cannot be taught as fact without any biblical scripture to back it up.

Well all that says is I am out of touch with what is happening in your area. And if in your area entire denominations are are splitting up over the pre-trib/post-trib debate then I would suggest that's not the core issue at all. It's pretty petty when denominations split up over non-essential matters. And I am not at all "out of touch" with what's going on in Christendom either, by the way. There are way more serious essential issues with the church today than simply teaching pre-trib or post-trib. Christians don't believe the bible as the final authority on matters of faith. They don;t believe in a literal heaven or hell, or a real Satan. They don't even know some of the very basic teachings of Jesus and matters pertaining to salvation. It is the essential issues that are corroding in the church, and believers can't seem to be united over anything. Churches are turning into social clubs and political lobbying groups, and "knitting bee" gossip circles where the latest fashion in Easter hats is more the conversation piece than the teaching of the local pastor.

Discrediting the Bible? Sister, we've been shooting ourselves in the foot for the past two generations.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

In Eschatology, there are three primary "rapture" theories

In biblical truth there are no "rapture theories";

That argument cuts both ways. Anyone could say to you that your view is not supported by the Scriptures on the grounds that they disagree with your hermeneutic treatment of the passages you present. It would not matter how much Scripture you present. If somone disagrees with your handling of it, they to could declare that YOU have no Scripture to support your view. Other people see their view as biblical too and are just convinced that you are mistaken.

So it really boils down to opinion. In your opinion, your view is the biblical one. No one is obligated to agree with you, and other people as much or more studied than you and more knonwledgable in the Bible than you disagree with your position and are just as fervent that THEIR position is the biblical position and that does make them heretics even if you cannot make room for that fact.

QUOTE

Because the church has no established doctrine in this area, the charge of "heresy" is completely unwarranted with respect to how one views the rapture

This is anothere fallacy. I can find you several churches that has established this as doctrine, including the fundamental Baptist denomination, and teach it from the pulpit, even tho the scriptures they have listed to support it say nothing of the sort of a pre-tribulation catching away of the saints.

For starters, there is my "former" fundamental Baptist, recently added to the list.

http://www.sebbc.org/SEBBC/doctrinal_statement1.html

Any doctrine is heresy that cannot be supported by scripture whether you like it or not.

But the pre-trib rapture is not a "doctrine" in the biblical sense of "doctrine." It does not fall in that category whatsoever. Doctrines over which genuine heresies have developed have always, without exception, pertained to the nature and character of God, the person and nature of Christ, the Trinity and the means and mode of Salvation.

Two other things: First of all I said that it is not established "Church" doctrine. Various churches hold to one of the three or four various views all over the world. I did not say there were not pre-trib churches. The rapture is not in the same category as say, The Trinity or the Deity of Jesus. The ratpture and one's views on it are an issue of conscience, over which good people can disagree based on their eschatalogical worldview. Because the rapture does not fit the definition of a "doctrine" it is a nonessential issue. Someone will be right and someone will be wrong, but no one is a "heretic" for simply being wrong. A heretic is someone who perverts what the Bible says pertaining to the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, their nature, operations and character. True heresies are those things which bring a seriuos assault to the character of God.

QUOTE

It is okay not to be convinced and to hold to one's position; it is not okay for someone else to throw around "heresy" charges on an issue about which there is room for disagreement without touching any major, established doctrine.

I disagree. It is not ok for a Christian person to hold to or to promote a doctrine that cannot be biblically supported no matter what you say. You are giving misinformation. The scriptures are clear on this and we are to "prove all things" I Thess. 5:21, using scripture.

The catching away of the saints at the end of the tribulation preceeded by the resurrection of the righteous dead in Christ is one of the easiest things to prove with scriptural authority inspite of the pre-tribulation rapture lie.

Like I said, that argument cuts both ways. It is nothing more than YOUR opinion that the pre-trib rapture cannot be supported. Someone else who has studied as much or more than you might see it otherwise and that does not make either of you heretics or liars. It simply means that you disagree.