Why are Jews hated so much?

[Guest charlie]

<<so everyone in the world [who is not a christian] is an anti-christ. How does this justify your position?>>

History justifies my position. It doesn't matter if you or anyone else likes it, the answer my mother gave was correct. In the past 2000 yrs most of the western word has been Christianized at some point, and the Bible is clear that actions by the Jewish leaders of the time resulted in Our Lord's crucifixion. There is also a widespread perception that Jewish people are wealthy, make a lot of money, and control a lot of wealth of the nations even though their numbers are small compared to the rest of the population. My father used to work for a Jewish man who'd survived the holocost. He told my daddy that Jews helped each other by pooling their money and helping a younger person go into business. He said if that business failed they would help him two more times. After the third time if that man failed that was it, no more help. Sounds like a pretty smart thing to do to me. I don't see anything wrong with wealth but unfortunately many people who are poor either due to circumstance or mismanagement of their resources have always been and always will be jealous of those who've been wise with their money.

<<None of these are specific to the jews.>>

No they're not BUT if we are going to apply these verses to everyone else, for instance the Muslims, then we should apply them fairly across the board. Jews do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior anymore than a Muslim or a Hindu, or a Buddist. In the past ten years I've heard the phrase Judeao-Christian until I'm ready to holler. The two words do NOT go together. They are two different religions. We've become so accustomed to Pat Robertson, and "Focus on the Family" guy throwing that word out there that most people just accept it without even thinking about it. If we're going to use Judeao-Christian together why not Muslim-Christian, or Buddist-Christian or how bout Wiccan-Christian? People need to start THINKING about what we're being conditioned to go along with.

<<However, there are verses which are specific to the jews.>><<Like Chapters 9, 10, & 11 of the Book of Romans.>>

Chapter 9 - Israel's Rejection of Christ

Israel's Rejection and God's Purpose

Israel's Rejection and God's Justice

Present Condition of Israel

Chapter 10 - Israel Needs the Gospel

Israel Rejects the Gospel

Chapter 11 - Israel's Rejection Not Total

Israel's Rejection Not Final

Sounds to me like God knows exactly what's going on, has a plan, and will handle things WITHOUT evangelical/fundamental help. I hate to say it but I sure get the feeling these days that our evan/fund. leaders are trying real hard to "force" God into action. That's not good. He'll do it in His time, when he's ready. In the meantime, we need to set a good example so that others will be drawn to Him, love our neighbor as ourselves, and speak the truth.

<<But answer this one question if you would. Please be as honest as you can.>><<Was God caught by surprise when the jewish leaders of 2000 years ago rejected Yeshua?>>

I'm being brutally honest here Yod. God was not caught by surprise. He told em what they were gonna do in the OT and they did it anyway. They still had free-will just like we do.

Let me ask you a question now and you please be as honest as you can. Do you feel "pressured" not to make ANY statement (even a statement that is factual) about Israel or the Jews that isn't "glowing with praise or good things". Are you afraid that you'll be labeled anti-semetic? You know if I say some southerns owned slaves before the civil war does that make me anti-southern? If you say, "I think O.J. Simpson probably killed his wife and got away with it", does that mean you're a racial bigot? No, those are factual or opinionated statements. I think most of us know when someone is being bigoted but where the nation of Israel/Jews are concerned I think we're slowly but surely being "pressured" into not exorcising our free speech, and worse.... free thought.

[Guest charlie]

One more thing Yod, you said:

<< The only threat to christians in Israel is Islam. >>

Whoa! You don't know what you're talking about.

Go to a search engine and put in palistinian christian. I believe they're something like 70,000 of them living in the West Bank. I would go get some links for you myself but I have to go to work.

You'll have to check it out yourself because your local preacher probably doesn't know and Hal Lindsey and Pat Robertson and those of that "ilk" sure ain't gonna tell you.

[Guest yod]

<<so everyone in the world [who is not a christian] is an anti-christ. How does this justify your position?>>

History justifies my position. It doesn't matter if you or anyone else likes it, the answer my mother gave was correct.

Maybe I misunderstood you so let me ask you something specifically. Do you see your mom's answer as justification for killing jews?

The reason I ask is because that kind of poison was spread by the church almost immediately after the gospel came to the gentiles and it resulted in jews being persecuted by christians more than any other group.

For instance, Hitler wasn't a christian but he justified his "final plan for the jews" from the writings of Martin Luther.

In the past 2000 yrs most of the western word has been Christianized at some point, and the Bible is clear that actions by the Jewish leaders of the time resulted in Our Lord's crucifixion.

Hmmm.....which bible do you use? Mine says that He laid His life down freely for the sins of all men.

There is also a widespread perception that Jewish people are wealthy, make a lot of money, and control a lot of wealth of the nations even though their numbers are small compared to the rest of the population.

That is because God has promised to bless all nations of the earth through them. If you take a look at the Nobel Peace Prize throughout the years you will see that a very high percentage of jews won for science, medicine, economics and other things that have benefited the entire world. One thing about the jews is that they are willing to share. How many jews do you personally know?

<<None of these are specific to the jews.>>

No they're not BUT if we are going to apply these verses to everyone else, for instance the Muslims, then we should apply them fairly across the board. Jews do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior anymore than a Muslim or a Hindu, or a Buddist.

I know thousands of them that do.

but there are specific promises by God to Abraham and again to Isaac that He would "Bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you"

Did He say this about Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, or russians? This is why you are asking for a curse when you pass that junk without thinking.

In the past ten years I've heard the phrase Judeao-Christian until I'm ready to holler. The two words do NOT go together. They are two different religions.

Jesus did not come to start a new religion. The "New Covenant" is given to the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel and we are adopted into that covenant. (See Jeremiah 31, John 4:22, Ephesians 2:11-16, Ephesians 3:6)

Christianity is biblical judaism.

People need to start THINKING about what we're being conditioned to go along with.

that is exactly what I'm trying to tell you. The stuff you have said is a very worldy way of thinking.

Sounds to me like God knows exactly what's going on, has a plan, and will handle things WITHOUT evangelical/fundamental help. I hate to say it but I sure get the feeling these days that our evan/fund. leaders are trying real hard to "force" God into action.

Some probably are but in the other cases how is obedience to the Bible a bad thing? We have to "provoke Israel to jealousy" for their God. We can't do it with spiteful attitudes.

<<But answer this one question if you would. Please be as honest as you can.>><<Was God caught by surprise when the jewish leaders of 2000 years ago rejected Yeshua?>>

I'm being brutally honest here Yod. God was not caught by surprise. He told em what they were gonna do in the OT and they did it anyway. They still had free-will just like we do.

Thank you for proving my point.

God knew EXACTLY what they would do and yet He promised to bless them forever. He promised them a kingdom where the Messiah would rule and reign from Jerusalem. He promised to a LOT of things to them knowing His plan for bringing the gentiles into His kingdom. This is what it means in Romans where it says that by their failure, He brought salvation to us. Why would that provoke anything but a desire to bless them? A desire to see them restored should be our response.

The land of Israel is an unconditional promise made by God to Abraham. It is also the land He calls His own. If we are to have any part in His plan we can't let our attitudes toward the jews by controlled by the ancient writings of the Roman institutional church, Martin Luther, or Hitler.

You won't find any permission for cursing the jews in the Bible, bro.

Let me ask you a question now and you please be as honest as you can. Do you feel "pressured" not to make ANY statement (even a statement that is factual) about Israel or the Jews that isn't "glowing with praise or good things".

I have no problem with factual statements whatsoever. The truth is that a jew needs the salvation found only in HIS MESSIAH like anyone else. What you started this thread with was not truth but inciteful statements which have kept the jews from coming to faith for 2,000 years. Should we show love to everyone but the jews?

And here is the truth that drives me;

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

" THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,

HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

27

" THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,

WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are (46) enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for (47) the sake of the fathers;

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

[Guest yod]

One more thing Yod, you said:

<< The only threat to christians in Israel is Islam. >>

Whoa!  You don't know what you're talking about.

Go to a search engine and put in palistinian christian.  I believe they're something like 70,000 of them living in the West Bank.  I would go get some links for you myself but I have to go to work.

You'll have to check it out yourself because your local preacher probably doesn't know and Hal Lindsey and Pat Robertson and those of that "ilk" sure ain't gonna tell you.

I know what the media spreads as truth....for whatever reason.

But I've been to Israel a couple of times in the last 3 years. I have numerous friends who live there....almost all of them christians. I have numerous (palestinian) ARAB christian friends there and here also.

Your supposition just ain't so.

There used to be about 60% arab christians in Bethlehem but it is down to less than 2% because of the Muslims murdering them. This does not compare to the small harrassment that some messianics will get from non-governmental groups. Christians get almost no harrassment...and certainly no persecution from Israel.

You are just misinformed about many things, bro.

[Guest charlie]

<<Maybe I misunderstood you so let me ask you something specifically. Do you see your mom's answer as justification for killing jews?>>

Yes you misunderstood me, and that's your fault. The answer my mother gave which is TRUE is not justification for killing jews but it is the reason why they've been hated. {sigh} {I don't like your implication.}

I'm well aware of the fact that God has preservered a REMNANT of the Jewish race, that we've all be blessed thru them and they've made many contributions to society. I've never said any different. Just just like every other human being on this earth they are also capable of evil and they do sin. They as a majority do not see Jesus Christ as the fullfillment of their own scriptures and think He was an imposter. I don't think we should persecute them but that in itself doesn't mean we should put them up on a pedestal and allow them to do whatever they want either. We should stick up for what's right and not be afraid of saying when something is wrong, regardless of who it is that is doing wrong.

God has a plan for Jews and for Israel. Whether mankind attempts to thwart this plan or try to help it along makes no difference. God's will, will be done. Do you think that because the Israeli's are Jewish that this jusfifies the murder and maiming of the Palistinian Christians. Do you think it is right for us to ignore their plight just because it is the Israeli's, in this particular case, who may be mistreating them. I bet if it wasn't the Israeli's but someone else persecuting them a lot more Christians would be squalling about it.

I think I've made myself perfectly clear thruout my posts. I think you have tried to twist my meaning into something it's not. Much like some people try to twist certain scriptures to suit their "pet preconceived" interpretation.

Judeao-Christian DOES NOT go together. Either you're Christian or you're not. I'm not saying to abuse others of a different religion either but we should stick up for our brothers and sisters who are suffereing AND attempt to emmulate Christ. If we all did this the rest would fall into place.

I have to get back to work now.

[Guest yod]

The answer my mother gave which is TRUE is not justification for killing jews but it is the reason why they've been hated. {sigh} {I don't like your implication.}

you said that the jews were hated because they were Christ killers. This is not wisdom. It is carnal thinking.

It is also neither scripturally true nor factual. The jews had no power to employ capitol punishment. Only the Romans could do that. Yes, the leaders of the jews rejected Him as Messiah but it was the jews and the gentiles TOGETHER who killed Yeshua. Yet even this was the sovereign plan of God.

John 10

14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

[Guest charlie]

Gotta make this quick:

<<There used to be about 60% arab christians in Bethlehem but it is down to less than 2% because of the Muslims murdering them.>>

See what I mean. Most people don't even know that any of the palistinians are even Chrisitian. The people that do know think that it's only the Muslims that are murdering and persecuting them. IT'S the Muslims and the Israeli's BOTH. But you don't heard Pat or Hal talking about that.

btw -- which tour did you take Yod, how many people did you convert? Just curious.

[Guest charlie]

<<you said that the jews were hated because they were Christ killers. This is not wisdom. It is carnal thinking.>><<It is also neither scripturally true nor factual. The jews had no power to employ capitol punishment. Only the Romans could do that.>>

Yod you got the party line down pat. Carnal thinking? haha I'd say you suffer more from brainwashing. You asked me which Bible I read. I've got the reliable old KJV and I've got a newer NKJV. I can't believe you're trying to say the the Jews had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Our Lord and that to say they did is not scriptural or factual. Sure the Romans drove in the nails but that was because of the Pharisees egging it on. They had no plans to crucify Jesus on their own. Are you saying the Bible is a lie now? You quoted it extensively in a previous post.

So you've got several Arab Christian friends? Hmmmm... I know of some Palistinian Christians who have immigrated here. What do your Palistinian "friends" have to say about the Israelis? I'd really like to hear what you are going to say to this.

You also mentioned in a previous post that the Early Church Fathers put this "poison" out there. I'd like to read for myself what they had to say. Can you provide me a list of which Church Fathers and where I can find that information. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. People twist the Bible around to justify all kinds of evil. They probably did the same with the writings of the Early Church Fathers....or not. Anyway, I've read enough of your posts just in this thread to know I'd like to read that for myself.

edited to add:

<<Yes, the leaders of the jews rejected Him as Messiah but it was the jews and the gentiles TOGETHER who killed Yeshua. Yet even this was the sovereign plan of God.>>

Ooophs Yod, I just did some skimming back and caught the last part. I agree the Jews and Gentiles together killing Jesus was part of God's sovereign plan.

So disregard this statement that I made above:

"I can't believe you're trying to say the the Jews had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Our Lord and that to say they did is not scriptural or factual."

You explained what you meant.

[Work in Progress]

I smell a troll. YOD, bless you, but I wouldn't bother.

Charlie, as the mother of children of Jewish heritage, your racist statements offend me. Heck, as a human being your racist statements offend me. I believe YOD is right in his assessment of you being an idiot. Please repent.

"Being nice" is not what I'm called to do when Satan starts talking.

A hearty AMEN to THAT, Brother!!!

[Guest charlie]

<<Charlie, as the mother of children of Jewish heritage, your racist statements offend me. Heck, as a human being your racist statements offend me. YOD is right, you are an idiot. Please repent.>>

I am not a racist by any stretch of the imagination Work in Progress. I'm sorry that you feel that I have offended you.

Now, please cut and paste the racist statement that you are accusing me of making. I'd like to see it please.