1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

[TheProcess]

many early Church fathers guessed that the comming of Christ would have to come much later, and they based this off biblical interpretation as well as tradition....(will provide evidence of this if requested, just lazy right now).

The Bible seems to be very open to different interpretation. I know that some of the Church Fathers were interpreting "genea" in Matthew 24:34 as meaning:

The Jews

The Christian believers

The human race

Anything to avoid the problem...

[TheProcess]

Regardless, when Paul refers to "we that are caught up" he is most likely refering to the "we", the collective body of believers, in the future. One other thing you forget that we see from language use in the New Testament and early Christian writings is that they viewed the collective body as that which was, which is, and which is to come. Thus when we see a collective reference to believers, we must take this into account.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV)

If the "we shall not all sleep" is about believers hundreds of years into the future then how much sense does that make? All it would seem to say in that circumstance is that some Christians would be alive when Jesus returns. Were some people not expecting that or something?

[billie]

First century Christians didn't know what to expect. Indeed, some of us are still arguing about it today....

[jgredline]

I taught a class on this book a few years ago.

Here are some of my notes:

4:13 Old Testament believers had an imperfect and incomplete knowledge of what happened to a person at the time of death. To them sheol was an all-purpose word used to describe the disembodied state, both of believers and unbelievers.

They believed that everyone would die eventually, that apparently there would be one general resurrection at the end of the world, and then a final judgment. Martha reflected these sketchy views when she said,

[billie]

Thanks, Javier. That was very enlightening.

[TheProcess]

Regardless, when Paul refers to "we that are caught up" he is most likely refering to the "we", the collective body of believers, in the future. One other thing you forget that we see from language use in the New Testament and early Christian writings is that they viewed the collective body as that which was, which is, and which is to come. Thus when we see a collective reference to believers, we must take this into account. It is not refering to the believers who are alive at that time, but to past, present, and future believers. The evidence is overwhelming when we see this, thus Paul most likely was refering to those that were alive at that time.

"that which was, which is, and which is to come"

You seem to be assuming about Paul that he thought there was much to come. How do you know that Paul, when he was writing that letter, thought of, and spoke of, a "collective body of believers" that included generations of people into the future? If Paul really did think that way then obviously he didn't expect Jesus to return in the first century! However, that is something you need to establish.

[TheProcess]

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 KJV)

Why would they be bothered about some people having died, unless they expected the quick return of Jesus?

[TheProcess]

Furthermore, if we follow history, we find that when prophecies, especially one concerning the end of days, do not come true when predicted that religion loses members, dies, or is placed into obscurity. We see this with Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and even older pagan religions. Though modern numbers show an increase, looking into history we find that when a prophecy was made and did not come true the numbers dropped drastically....this has occured with ALL religions in the past.

I came across an article:

A pattern emerges when we examine the growth figures before and after each disconfirmation. Typically, there was a rapid growth in numbers at least two years before the prophetic date, followed by a falling away of some (viewed as a "cleansing" of the organization of the unfaithful), then another growth spurt as a new emphasis on evangelism was put forward.

It may seem incomprehensible how the Witnesses could ignore the implications of each disconfirmation. Outsiders view the Witnesses as lacking common sense for not leaving the organization after numerous failures. They fail to understand the dynamics of mind control as used by cults. Even many ex-JWs fail to understand that the further disconfirmation of the importance of 1914 and "this generation" will not seriously affect the numbers of those swelling the ranks of the Watchtower. The results of mind control and unquestioning obedience will have the same effect today as it did in Russell's day. His view was, "Where else can we go?" Harrison writes regarding this attitude,

"That, of course, is one of the keys to survival of the organization Russell founded on soft mysticism, glorious visions and worldly disaffection. The Witnesses had nowhere else to go. Their investment in their religion was total; to leave it would have meant spiritual and emotional bankruptcy. They were not equipped to function in a world without certainty. It was their life. To leave it would be a death." (24)

This same dependency-unto-death phenomena is at work in thousands of cults all over the world. People wondered at Jonestown: "Why didn't they leave when they saw what Jim Jones was becoming?" The people of Jonestown answered by their actions, "Where else would we go?" They had burned their bridges to follow their Messiah unto death.

Over 110 years and several failed prophecies later, the Watchtower movement is testimony enough that failed predictions do not mean the dissolution of a cult following. The failure of 1975 resulted in a decrease of less than 2%. (25) The Watchtower will always be able to develop clever rationalizations regarding their changing dates, as their history documents. Today, the Watchtower grows at a rate of about 5% per year worldwide, with over 3.7 million door knockers and over 9 million sympathizers! (26)

When Prophecies Fail: A Sociological Perspective on Failed Expectation in the Watchtower Society

by Randall Watters

http://www.freeminds.org/psych/propfail.htm

It seems that soon after a prediction is falsified, they are able to bring in new members! And note that: "The failure of 1975 resulted in a decrease of less than 2%". I am not sure that pointing to the Jehovah's Witnesses is really that helpful to you.

[Guest bsubronco]

thanks for your responses.

[Guest SheepDog]

Process,

Peace to you

All that matters....

1Thessalonians 5:1,2

1 But of the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I write to you.

2 For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.

Whether we, or they, are alive for it or not doesn't matter....Christ IS coming

And it will be a glorious day !!!!!!!!

p.s. Thank you for your posts here AK (especially post #12), very informative and helpful

Looks like you've stirred up the "anti", good luck brother

Edited August 2, 2006 by SheepDog