secondeve Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Billie, Floating, that wasn't what I was after. I know that, as Christians, you believe that to be true: I was asking for reasons which might seem commonsense to the non-religious. As I said, you don't have to be Christian to think that murder or adultery are harmful things; being Christian just adds another dimension to the reason why. So, if there is one, what straight-out reason exists for why homosexuality is bad which would make sense in a non-religious context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvan3 Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2006 what command does it break? i take it you haven't read scripture, which indicates in many passages both old and new testament that God finds homosexuality an abomination and that those who continue to practice it without repentance will not enter the kingdom of heaven. what does that matter? nothing to those who don't care i suppose. but it matters greatly to those who desire to know God, serve God, and live eternally with God. I know of no person alive that chose his or her sexual preference. If anyone differs with that, I would like to know at what point their orientation decision was made. I think it is myopic to believe that someone who is gay might not desire to "know God, serve God", and live eternally with God". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 9, 2006 That's the dilemma. Isn't it? When we take God out of the equation, it's hard to tell right from wrong, why from why not, up from down. If there's no god or we can make up our own god or pick the one we like off the shelf, the one that says we can do what we please, why indeed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 9, 2006 what command does it break? i take it you haven't read scripture, which indicates in many passages both old and new testament that God finds homosexuality an abomination and that those who continue to practice it without repentance will not enter the kingdom of heaven. what does that matter? nothing to those who don't care i suppose. but it matters greatly to those who desire to know God, serve God, and live eternally with God. I know of no person alive that chose his or her sexual preference. If anyone differs with that, I would like to know at what point their orientation decision was made. I think it is myopic to believe that someone who is gay might not desire to "know God, serve God", and live eternally with God". Let's make sure we're all on the same page. What's the difference between "preference" and "orientation"? Are the terms interchangeable, or are they different? What about "being gay"? Are we talking "preference here, or active participation in the lifestyle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 sylvan, people don't choose to be addicts either, yet once an addict it takes over their life and they are no longer in control. they are in bondage. people can be in bondage to any sin, and homosexuals are indeed in bondage. 2ndeve, there probably isn't an explanation that can satisfy an unbeliever. although even many unbelievers who are wise enough to acknowledge the pain they've experienced in their own lives (and witnessed in others) understand that sexual relationships without a life-commitment are emotionally harmful, and can be physically harmful as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvan3 Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2006 what command does it break? i take it you haven't read scripture, which indicates in many passages both old and new testament that God finds homosexuality an abomination and that those who continue to practice it without repentance will not enter the kingdom of heaven. what does that matter? nothing to those who don't care i suppose. but it matters greatly to those who desire to know God, serve God, and live eternally with God. I know of no person alive that chose his or her sexual preference. If anyone differs with that, I would like to know at what point their orientation decision was made. I think it is myopic to believe that someone who is gay might not desire to "know God, serve God", and live eternally with God". Let's make sure we're all on the same page. What's the difference between "preference" and "orientation"? Are the terms interchangeable, or are they different? What about "being gay"? Are we talking "preference here, or active participation in the lifestyle? I think orientation and preference are very similar, but it also depends on how you define "active participation". Active participation to me wouldn't necessarily mean that someone has a partner and is cavorting about in public or in private. They may be single--as are many straight people--who are "active" in a solitary way, if you get my drift. Whereas this might not be a problem in a sociological way (private thoughts and behaviors), it would seem to be problematic in a theological way (private thoughts have been condemned theologically--see Jesus's statement about lusting in the heart). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 9, 2006 By active participation I mean involved in a homosexual relationship, looking to be, or dwelling on these thoughts purposefully and unrepentantly as opposed to saved, delivered and/or not participating in the act, not seeking to, not dwelling on these thoughts. I'll tell you why I asked. God does deliver some gay people from the desire. There are people in my church who profess to being delivered from ever having homosexual desires and now have families. He CAN deliver everyone, but doesn't. God uses these "thorns in our sides" to refine us, to help us lean on Him, to remind us how fragile our human will is. This is my opinion, now. Many will disagree with me. That's OK. I have weaknesses in my life, not this particular thing, but others, that God uses for His glory. That's just fine with me. I trust Him to deliver me when He's ready. He gives me grace not to sin, and that's sufficient for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvan3 Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2006 sylvan, people don't choose to be addicts either, yet once an addict it takes over their life and they are no longer in control. they are in bondage. people can be in bondage to any sin, and homosexuals are indeed in bondage. 2ndeve, there probably isn't an explanation that can satisfy an unbeliever. although even many unbelievers who are wise enough to acknowledge the pain they've experienced in their own lives (and witnessed in others) understand that sexual relationships without a life-commitment are emotionally harmful, and can be physically harmful as well. I don't think that comparing sexual orientation to drug addiction is valid. Drug addiction has effects that are most definitely physically and sociologically detrimental. The argument that says this is the case regarding sexual orientation is shaky at best. For example, one might argue that homosexual men run the risk of AIDS, but that won't hold true about gay women. Also, there would definitely be examples where homosexual couples have comported themselves in acceptable ways (i.e. have remained with one partner, contributed to society in a positive way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvan3 Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 9, 2006 By active participation I mean involved in a homosexual relationship, looking to be, or dwelling on these thoughts purposefully and unrepentantly as opposed to saved, delivered and/or not participating in the act, not seeking to, not dwelling on these thoughts. I'll tell you why I asked. God does deliver some gay people from the desire. There are people in my church who profess to being delivered from ever having homosexual desires and now have families. He CAN deliver everyone, but doesn't. God uses these "thorns in our sides" to refine us, to help us lean on Him, to remind us how fragile our human will is. This is my opinion, now. Many will disagree with me. That's OK. I have weaknesses in my life, not this particular thing, but others, that God uses for His glory. That's just fine with me. I trust Him to deliver me when He's ready. He gives me grace not to sin, and that's sufficient for me. With all due respect to those from your church, the studies I have seen show a significant lack in ability to change sexual preference. Being able to change the orientation is a big loser from what I have seen. If anyone finds something to the contrary, I will be happy to look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Our "orientation" is sinful man. Our "preference" is to sin. When we come to a holy God, we choose Him and His WAY and become free from that burden of sin, and so we can now choose NOT to sin. With the Holy Spirit's power within us, we are overcomers! Homosexuals all choose. When God forbids something, He never makes it impossible to comply...therefore there is no biological or genetic component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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