Free will?

[Observer of dreams]

Sorry for the double post but I just realized that lypse`s argument was an inductive argument, as well as indoctrinous as it doesn`t take an objective aproach but rather a biased one. The argument presented was stated with the intent of deminishing the christian nature to stand up for ones belief, or who present an opposing view that one without a stoney heart would learn from. The very purpose of this thread is to argue, not to learn. Also it is worded in such a way that lypse may come back and read what I have written currently, and dismiss them by way of logical tactics which is inept anyways.

Most people are spiritually dumb. I am spiritually dumb. Even though I would like to say I am one of the more spiritual people around here I fight temptation all the time, I sin, I am flawed. So being a flawed person one could expect that my statments are also flawed. So Lypse in return instead of arguing with you I will take the time to learn from you.

What led you to believe that God is all knowing, and what are your own personal beliefs and rules about God?

What do you mean by a purposeful God?

Do you mean a God that created us to serve a purpose?

What purpose do you think he intended?

Why don`t you believe there couldn`t have been any other outcome besides choosing the black door?

How do you know my purpose has been fixed and I cannot change my own path?

What do you think God intended for you as a non-believer?

Was it your choice to deny God?

Do you feel it was your choice to write this topic to begin with?

How do you personally feel about your inability to make any decisions for yourself without them being directed by God`s hand even though you chose the path of non-belief?

Why do you feel the need to be an advarsary of God?

What it is about God that turns you away from him?

Edited August 27, 2006 by Observer of dreams

[eric]

If Adam was created with a freewill, why did God warn him that if he ate off a certain tree, he would surely die, which he did in both cases. He died spiritually, so if you want to go through life spiritually dead and end up in eternal darkness, ignore the will of God and continue to do your own thing.........Read Matt.7:21.

Observer. you don't seriously beloive that your questions will be scriptually answered, do you?

[rstrats]

This is off topic, but all this talk of doors urges me to ask the following question:

You are a contestant on a game show. There are three doors. Behind one of the doors is a new car. You are asked to choose one of the doors. Lets say that you choose door #1. The host of the show opens door #3 and there is no car behind it. The host now gives you a choice. You can stay with door #1 or you can change your choice to door #2. The question now is: would it be to your advantage to stay with door #1, or would it be to your advantage to change to door #2 or would there be no advantage either way?

[billie]

What IS behind door #!?

[eric]

This is off topic, but all this talk of doors urges me to ask the following question:

You are a contestant on a game show. There are three doors. Behind one of the doors is a new car. You are asked to choose one of the doors. Lets say that you choose door #1. The host of the show opens door #3 and there is no car behind it. The host now gives you a choice. You can stay with door #1 or you can change your choice to door #2. The question now is: would it be to your advantage to stay with door #1, or would it be to your advantage to change to door #2 or would there be no advantage either way?

you are right about one thing, It's way off topic.

[cjrose]

If Adam was created with a freewill, why did God warn him that if he ate off a certain tree, he would surely die, which he did in both cases. He died spiritually, so if you want to go through life spiritually dead and end up in eternal darkness, ignore the will of God and continue to do your own thing.........Read Matt.7:21.

Observer. you don't seriously beloive that your questions will be scriptually answered, do you?

At least God tried to warn Adam, but knowing full well that he would die spiritually. Which is why there are Christians out there so willing to witness, so they don't have to go through life spiritually dead and end up in what I like to call eternal torment when 1. Life is so much more joyful with the Holy Spirit & 2. Eternal salvation!!! Just rewards for those who choose Him.

[secondeve]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

If I see into the future and watch an apple fall from a tree did I make the apple fall? The answer is no, but I knew it would.

This is a good response, but it doesn't deal completely with the idea of God being omnipotent. Suppose you held the seed of that apple tree in your hand, and - because you were God - you knew that, if you planted the tree, that apple would one day fall. By not planting the tree, you would have prevented this action - you didn't knock it off the tree, but you set in motion the chain of events without which the apple could not have fallen.

Now. Presume also that God knows everything. If there was a way in which the apple might have been prevented from falling, God would have known. If he chooses not to take that course of action, then the apple falls. He is indirectly responsible: he did not perform the action, but created the circumstances without which it couldn't have taken place.

If I were to lock a known alchoholic in a room with a crate of vodka, and he then drank himself to death, did I kill him? No - but without my help, he wouldn't have died either at that time or in that fashion.

So. I would say that, if God exists, then we have free will, but that God can be held accountable for our actions. If he created us and knows the outcome of every possible course we might ever take - while simultaneously possessing the omnipotent power to change that course - then the only reason we take the paths we do is because God allows it. If we select them, and he does not alter our direction, then, in a sense, he is accountable for our choices - less so than we are, perhaps, but accountable nonetheless.

Edited August 29, 2006 by secondeve

[cjrose]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

If I see into the future and watch an apple fall from a tree did I make the apple fall? The answer is no, but I knew it would.

This is a good response, but it doesn't deal completely with the idea of God being omnipotent. Suppose you held the seed of that apple tree in your hand, and - because you were God - you knew that, if you planted the tree, that apple would one day fall. By not planting the tree, you would have prevented this action - you didn't knock it off the tree, but you set in motion the chain of events without which the apple could not have fallen.

Now. Presume also that God knows everything. If there was a way in which the apple might have been prevented from falling, God would have known. If he chooses not to take that course of action, then the apple falls. He is indirectly responsible: he did not perform the action, but created the circumstances without which it couldn't have taken place.

If I were to lock a known alchoholic in a room with a crate of vodka, and he then drank himself to death, did I kill him? No - but without my help, he wouldn't have died either at that time or in that fashion.

So. I would say that, if God exists, then we have free will, but that God can be held accountable for our actions. If he created us and knows the outcome of every possible course we might ever take - while simultaneously possessing the omnipotent power to change that course - then the only reason we take the paths we do is because God allows it. If we select them, and he does not alter our direction, then, in a sense, he is accountable for our choices - less so than we are, perhaps, but accountable nonetheless.

Wow, you have really done some thinking on this. Or does it just come easy to you because as I have said many times, you are very intelligent. Your line of thought makes no sense to me simply because our beliefs are so different. God man the world, God made man, God told Adam he could have anything he wanted but do not eat of the apple. He was warned. The thing is, is that God knew Adam would fall, and I believe this because I walk in the light, where your theories have no basis. God is never accountable to us, it is us who are accountable to Him.

God does not make mistakes, and again, He design this world, this universe to His perfect plan. Your vodka metaphor also doesn't have much to do about the sin Adam commited that caused him to die spiritually. And when he and eve realized their sin, as they were naked and unashamed before, they covered themselves with leaves out of shame. A sign that they had died spiritually.

If God wanted a perfect world, He would have made it that way. Again I say, He is the Beginning and the End. He had the power to change the course Adam would take, but as a God who had designed His plan for man to have free will and free choice, He allowed it.

You are trying to understand it in a theoritical light, where I understand it in a spiritual light.

[LightofJesus]

It is His grace that sees us through and it is His mercy that hears our hearts. He knows the heart of man. We do not even know our own heart. God knows all things and whatever choices we do make He uses those choices for His purpose. If we as Christians make wrong choices God KNOWS how to bring us back to HIS plan, simply because He KNOWS our heart!! If our HEART is right, even when we make wrong choices, He will turn our decisions toward His desire, for He gives us the desires of our heart. I know people think that when we see this scripture they think that God is going to give us the THINGS we desire. No HE GIVES us those desires that line up with HIS purpose. Our decisions line up I think more than we know because He will even use disasters and calamity to serve His purpose. We have a tendancy to think and look through rose colored glasses all too often and then we freak out when things happen and wonder why all this stuff is going on well my dear friends it is however all in His plan

[cjrose]

It is His grace that sees us through and it is His mercy that hears our hearts. He knows the heart of man. We do not even know our own heart. God knows all things and whatever choices we do make He uses those choices for His purpose. If we as Christians make wrong choices God KNOWS how to bring us back to HIS plan, simply because He KNOWS our heart!! If our HEART is right, even when we make wrong choices, He will turn our decisions toward His desire, for He gives us the desires of our heart. I know people think that when we see this scripture they think that God is going to give us the THINGS we desire. No HE GIVES us those desires that line up with HIS purpose. Our decisions line up I think more than we know because He will even use disasters and calamity to serve His purpose. We have a tendancy to think and look through rose colored glasses all too often and then we freak out when things happen and wonder why all this stuff is going on well my dear friends it is however all in His plan

Amen Light. Reading your post is like I could have written it myself. Isn't God awesome that we can understand each other so well when we are in the light?