Atheistic Lives

[secondeve]

I just can't grasp the notion that athiests believe in nothing but their lives and how they live them until it's done and then nothing...

I know there's a similar thread going in the Outer Court, but I feel that this perspective of athiesm is one which many Christians share. So, working from this directly, I'd like to give my synopsis of it - which is to say, I'm speaking for myself, not all athiests, even when I say "we" - and I'm bearing in mind that not every athiest is like this. Feel free to disagree, comment or question, whatever your beliefs.

Firstly, the idea of believing in

nothing but our lives

It suggests that we - which is to say, every athiest - thinks, individually, that they are the most important thing in the world, because there is no higher purpose. This is untrue. It is easy for the majority of people, regardless of their beliefs, to recognise that other people have feelings similar, different or contrary to their own. This includes athiests. Whatever we might believe about the world - and regardless of any theories as to the purpose or origins of empathy - we still recognise that other people think, exist, strive, dream and feel, just as we do. Self-centeredness, egotism or callousness are not prerequisites of athiesm, any more than such attributes are confined to athiests. As with the rest of the population, it is more the norm that we live for - and care for - others beside ourselves.

Equally, though, the thought could apply to purpose, i.e.: there is no purpose to my life except that which I give it myself. This is true - but not normally the dismal prospect that those with faith often imagine it to be. The idea of an omnipotent deity is often associated with determinism and a lack of free will, topics which are debated within religious communities as it is. Many athiests are not distressed by being "alone in the universe" because it means that nothing in our lives is fixed or beyond our ability to change. Most dislike the idea that, if they hit a slump or suffer a string of misfortunes, there was nothing they could have done about it. Failure distresses all of us. So what of the idea that we were always going to fail, that despite our best efforts, we would never reach that particular goal - that it was, effectively, out of our hands? It is small comfort to most athiests in times of trouble - as it would be, presumably, to most people - to consider that maybe there was a reason for what happened. Up until such a reason is made manifestly apparent, the negative result of whatever mishap must still be endured, and if - in the case of God - such a reason may never become visible, this creates further disheartenment.

(Note: I understand the concept of faith; the idea that a belief being less preferable does not make it untrue; and the fact that many Christians might consider the above a 'blaming God' mindset. I'm not trying to enter into any of these areas of debate: what I'm trying to explain is how athiests can find the idea of no God more comforting in times of troubles than the idea that a God exists. Cjrose's initial question - as I understood it - was asking how or why an absence of God would be more comforting; and I am trying to show that the same kind of people who, if they were Christian, would feel powerless and upset at God when bad things happen are most likely the same kind of people who find athiesm comforting, for the reason that it puts them in control of their own life.)

how they live them until it's done

I think that, regardless of belief, there's a great deal to be said for focusing on how we live our lives. We all live until we die, and in that time, we try to make the best of it. The difference with athiests is that, unless we believe- independantly of a religion - in reincarnation or souls, we don't think we're going anywhere when we die. Truth be told, nobody is certain what will happen to them after death; we either admit our ignorance, concoct theories or have faith. Mortality is something every human lives with. Athiests don't believe that life is a process of striving to reach divine ideals, and so we don't try to - but this is not the same thing as saying we have neither morals nor ambitions. We want to make good lives for ourselves, because we only get one, and if, as has already been addressed, we are in the majority who understand that other people are like this, too, we don't want to do it at the expense of the rest of the world. We don't believe that an inherent moral law exists in the same way as the inherent law of gravity ( i.e. whether people regonise it or not); we do believe that, for whatever reason, we have a concept of morality which stems from empathy for other people and a recognition for the need of societal order. Because of this, we take our morality from what seems logical to us, and what we feel to be right, based on our own perceptions, experiences and knowledge. By no means does this add up to a universal set of athiestic morals - far from it - nor are such morals always going to be acceptable by everyone in the world. The fact remains, however, that morals and a moral compunction are still present, as is a process for deciding what is moral and what is not.

and then nothing...

Most likely, yes. But we won't be aware to know that we're dead. Humans tend to think of death as a blackness - but in order to percieve black, there has to be an awareness: the idea is just an association with what we can't see. If I just switch off when I die, I want to have lived a full, good life, and know that some people will remember me fondly. There doesn't need to be somwhere else to go. A lot of athiests think that the idea of heaven is a comforter: we're afraid of dying, and so death isn't really death. It's like going to sleep, only you'll wake up somewhere else - but not an unfamiliar somewhere, because everything will be perfect and all your loved ones will be there. At the same time, though, this belief is not comforting in itself, although lots of athiests take a kind of perverse pride in knowing that they have accepted death while others have not. Myself, I don't go in for that, but it is common. I think a fear of dying is natural, but that doesn't mean I want to live forever - and neither, I think, would most people.

Edited August 31, 2006 by secondeve

[jossshr]

I guess what I still don't understand is why do you value other people if they are just another type of animal who won't be around for more than a few years? Why would you even have morals? I would seek pleasure at every moment and the thoughts of others would be inconsequential cause I'll be dead soon as will they. If my actions have no consequences then who really cares what I do? I would only do what I want at every moment.

How do you explain this universally accepted code of morals (i.e. its bad to murder, steal, etc.) that is not present in any other species? Was there a point in time where someone sat all of humanity down and said this is wrong and this is right?

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed it.

[secondeve]

I guess what I still don't understand is why do you value other people if they are just another type of animal who won't be around for more than a few years? Why would you even have morals? I would seek pleasure at every moment and the thoughts of others would be inconsequential cause I'll be dead soon as will they. If my actions have no consequences then who really cares what I do? I would only do what I want at every moment.

How do you explain this universally accepted code of morals (i.e. its bad to murder, steal, etc.) that is not present in any other species? Was there a point in time where someone sat all of humanity down and said this is wrong and this is right?

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed it.

Well, let me put it this way: if God made all people, regardless of what we believe, do most people have empathy? Yes. Do most people have morals? Yes. If you believe that we all have these features, then it doesn't matter - for the purposes of athiests being nice - how we got them. The fact is that not believing in God doesn't rob us of our ability to empathise or to love, any more than it changes us so that morality seems optional. The fact that we have different morals and love things other than God might seem like an indication of this to some Christians, but it isn't. My actions have consequences - just not divine ones. If I break a law, I will be punished. The policeman can be God or a person; the principle is still the same.

I have my own theories about why we have morals and empathy, but as they aren't definitive, unless you ask me specifically, I'll leave it at that. Thank you for your response

[cjrose]

I guess what I still don't understand is why do you value other people if they are just another type of animal who won't be around for more than a few years? Why would you even have morals? I would seek pleasure at every moment and the thoughts of others would be inconsequential cause I'll be dead soon as will they. If my actions have no consequences then who really cares what I do? I would only do what I want at every moment.

How do you explain this universally accepted code of morals (i.e. its bad to murder, steal, etc.) that is not present in any other species? Was there a point in time where someone sat all of humanity down and said this is wrong and this is right?

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed it.

Now, isn't this the day that I become involved in defending athiests to really do, as athiests why wouldn't they have some of the same values and morals that Christians do. "Why would you even have morals" because they are human beings and were taught values and morals by their parents, grandparents, friends, so on and so forth. The are people, just like you and I are jossshr. Now I will admit I haven't read the first part of this thread because eve, my friend, it's sooooooo long, that I went straight to this response. If I am out of line then I apologize.

Their actions do have consequences. They are accountable to their spouse, partner, friends, family, co-workers, school mates, etc... They also know it's wrong to murder, steal, etc...

You berate her and then thank her for her post that you really enjoyed it. I'm confussled but that's not hard for me.

I just appreciate eve trying to give us a glimpse of her way of life rather than the other athiest post in the outer court that has been posted in to the ground. And it's author, doesn't respond well to questions proposed as he proposed his own questions.

Now I am off my soap box, not taking sides except the Christian side The only side. But I am trying to understand truly.

[cjrose]

I guess what I still don't understand is why do you value other people if they are just another type of animal who won't be around for more than a few years? Why would you even have morals? I would seek pleasure at every moment and the thoughts of others would be inconsequential cause I'll be dead soon as will they. If my actions have no consequences then who really cares what I do? I would only do what I want at every moment.

How do you explain this universally accepted code of morals (i.e. its bad to murder, steal, etc.) that is not present in any other species? Was there a point in time where someone sat all of humanity down and said this is wrong and this is right?

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed it.

Well, let me put it this way: if God made all people, regardless of what we believe, do most people have empathy? Yes. Do most people have morals? Yes. If you believe that we all have these features, then it doesn't matter - for the purposes of athiests being nice - how we got them. The fact is that not believing in God doesn't rob us of our ability to empathise or to love, any more than it changes us so that morality seems optional. The fact that we have different morals and love things other than God might seem like an indication of this to some Christians, but it isn't. My actions have consequences - just not divine ones. If I break a law, I will be punished. The policeman can be God or a person; the principle is still the same.

I have my own theories about why we have morals and empathy, but as they aren't definitive, unless you ask me specifically, I'll leave it at that. Thank you for your response

Well said eve, as usual.

[secondeve]

I guess what I still don't understand is why do you value other people if they are just another type of animal who won't be around for more than a few years? Why would you even have morals? I would seek pleasure at every moment and the thoughts of others would be inconsequential cause I'll be dead soon as will they. If my actions have no consequences then who really cares what I do? I would only do what I want at every moment.

How do you explain this universally accepted code of morals (i.e. its bad to murder, steal, etc.) that is not present in any other species? Was there a point in time where someone sat all of humanity down and said this is wrong and this is right?

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed it.

Well, let me put it this way: if God made all people, regardless of what we believe, do most people have empathy? Yes. Do most people have morals? Yes. If you believe that we all have these features, then it doesn't matter - for the purposes of athiests being nice - how we got them. The fact is that not believing in God doesn't rob us of our ability to empathise or to love, any more than it changes us so that morality seems optional. The fact that we have different morals and love things other than God might seem like an indication of this to some Christians, but it isn't. My actions have consequences - just not divine ones. If I break a law, I will be punished. The policeman can be God or a person; the principle is still the same.

I have my own theories about why we have morals and empathy, but as they aren't definitive, unless you ask me specifically, I'll leave it at that. Thank you for your response

Well said eve, as usual.

Thanks cj - sorry my OP was so long (as usual!) - you're not out of line at all. I just wanted to address it fully for everyone who happened to read this thread, because I felt the way you expressed it was concise while also touching on the key points, because your phrases could mean more than one thing.

[Guest Thomas I Believe]

Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O LORD; I say, "You are my God."

Do you know the truth ? He loves you !!

Secondeve does the truth scare you ? How long can you avoid it ? Do you truly want to know the truth eve ?

[secondeve]

Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O LORD; I say, "You are my God."

Do you know the truth ? He loves you !!

Secondeve does the truth scare you ? How long can you avoid it ? Do you truly want to know the truth eve ?

I finished reading a really good fantasy book yesterday, Forest Mage by Robin Hobb. Right near the end, there was an exchange between two of the characters about why two different cultures were finding each other's desires mutually incompatable. A line that struck me (paraphrased from memory) went something like this:

'It's as if we think that, given the chance, everybody would think like we do. But they won't, because we've never tried to understand them in the first place, and so we just assume that their refusal to become like us is due to superstition or stubbornness.'

Thomas, do you think that, given the chance, I would think like you do? Even if I ever converted, I'd be my own person. Stating what seems obvious to you but which clearly isn't to me won't help either of us. Until you understand where I'm coming from - or at least try to - you're always going to be talking past me. You talk about your truth - the Bible - as though everyone else only has to turn their heads just so in order to realise what's there; but it isn't like that. It isn't self-apparent; it isn't obvious, even to athiests who've studied the Bible. For as long as you dismiss my beliefs without comprehending them, you have no right to tell me what is or is not obvious in my life.

Edited August 31, 2006 by secondeve

[nebula]

Mortality is something every human lives with. Athiests don't believe that life is a process of striving to reach divine ideals, and so we don't try to - but this is not the same thing as saying we have neither morals nor ambitions. We want to make good lives for ourselves, because we only get one, and if, as has already been addressed, we are in the majority who understand that other people are like this, too, we don't want to do it at the expense of the rest of the world. We don't believe that an inherent moral law exists in the same way as the inherent law of gravity ( i.e. whether people regonise it or not); we do believe that, for whatever reason, we have a concept of morality which stems from empathy for other people and a recognition for the need of societal order. Because of this, we take our morality from what seems logical to us, and what we feel to be right, based on our own perceptions, experiences and knowledge. By no means does this add up to a universal set of athiestic morals - far from it - nor are such morals always going to be acceptable by everyone in the world. The fact remains, however, that morals and a moral compunction are still present, as is a process for deciding what is moral and what is not.

Since AAA never came back to answer my question, maybe you can.

Why is there so much evil in the world?

And why does evil make "better drama"?

Why in "Reality TV" do people prefer watching the rat race to be won by the number 1 rat, rather than watching people doing good to each other and building each other up? (And when they do see the better side of humanity, why do so many mock it - "Bring out the tissues - gag!" and such comments? - I saw this from the message board of "Who Wants to Be a Superhero?" BTW)

And can yoiu answer this from your "heart" (the depths of your soul) rather than your "head"?

[ted]

I think it's important to note that many (Not sure if I could guess on the actual ratio) Christians were atheists before they accepted Christ- as in my case.

I couldn't care less about God, Jesus, the Bible, or religion in general before I asked Him into my heart as my Savior.

I still lived a decent enough life, to a point. For 34 years I lived without any form of religion squirming it's way into my being.

Then, one day- BAM!

But, my point is, hundreds of thousands of us remember what it's like before salvation. Personally, I didn't realize the love of Christ before I accepted Him, but He certainly did not fail to help me once I honestly asked.

People who do not accept Jesus are not any more evil than anyone else.

t.