Atheistic Lives

[nebula]

If we like our characters a bit "dark", why do we demand perfection out of them? We want our "heros" to be model citizens, don't we?

Also, would you consider Mother Theresa to be boring?

I'm not sure we do demand perfection of dark characters

Sorry, our communication got mixed up. I meant we like our "good guy" characters a bit dark, yet we demand perfection out of them.

- we simply don't like the idea that they're willingly dark. We want them to have to fight for who they are the rest of the time. And I'm equally uncertain that we like our heroes to be model citizens. Yes, we put them on a pedestal, but we don't like them to sail through perfect events. Without adversity and darkness to the stories, how could there be heroes?

Put Mother Theresa in the above category. She is far from "boring," because when I talk about the good guy being boring, I'm also talking about setting, which perhaps I didn't make clear. We live adversity in our stories. A strong, righteous hero only works against a backdrop of terrible adversity, which Mother Theresa certainly had. If there had been no plight in India for her to combat, would she have been a hero? That's what I'm saying. We can have almost-perfect characters, or heroic ones, but we still need the dark element to make the story work.

Hmmm . . . miscommunicating again.

With my initual question, I wasn't thinking of circumstance (setting). I am thinking of people.

Maybe if I take this out of the realm of fantasy and place it in reality - since it was pondering over "reality TV" that I began my question(s).

Why do so many people enjoy watching people getting rotten with each other?

Take Survivor - is it possible to get ahead without being a complete jerk? Or at least being a subtle jerk?

You see, I ask this of you and AAA because I hear so often from Atheists and Agnostics about where your sene of morality comes from and how yo define morality - yet what happens to "the betterment of humanity" the rubber hits the road?

If we are products of evolution, and evolution is about improving to survive - why do we have such a facination for regression?

[nebula]

BTW. be careful about your wording:

[...it's my belief that the universe wasn't designed with our comprehension in mind.

Your statement indicates you believe the universe was designed.

( Sorry, you set yourself up for that one. )

[cjrose]

BTW. be careful about your wording:

[...it's my belief that the universe wasn't designed with our comprehension in mind.

Your statement indicates you believe the universe was designed.

( Sorry, you set yourself up for that one. )

good one neb

[billie]

BTW. be careful about your wording:

[...it's my belief that the universe wasn't designed with our comprehension in mind.

Your statement indicates you believe the universe was designed.

( Sorry, you set yourself up for that one. )

good one neb

We wub you, Eve!

[cjrose]

BTW. be careful about your wording:

[...it's my belief that the universe wasn't designed with our comprehension in mind.

Your statement indicates you believe the universe was designed.

( Sorry, you set yourself up for that one. )

good one neb

We wub you, Eve!

I second that emotion

I'm in such a great mood today No idea why either!!!! Call me crazy in Love with Jesus maybe?

[emeraldgirl]

Hi, Dave. Dave you said:

What I was stating is that Christians have in most cases studied the other Religions and found them to be false. thumbsup.gif

It was and is obviously ypur presumption that we are simply born Christians and are following mindlessly our parents choice.

When that fact is blatently false even in my own experienec. Upon clsoe scrutiny, practice, and the examination of my Families Religious choice. I found it to be woefully inadequate to the claims of Jesus Christ. The Religion I was brought up in calls itself Christian. thumbsup.gif So myparents choice for me or even my Nations states most popular Religion had no bearing on the weight of the evidence when it was examined.

Here's the thing, though. Was it likely, having been brought up in a "Christian" home (even if it wasn't "the real thing", as you now see it), was it likely that you would seek out a faith that was diametrically opposed to Christianity? Being brought up Catholic still put you in close proximity to the ideas you now accept, even if it wasn't (in your view) the real thing. How much less likely would it be for you to grow up Catholic and become a Moslem? Or a Buddhist? See, such conversions are way more rare.

Also, the assertion that Jesus was either the Real Thing or a nutcase only holds water when you presuppose that the Bible is totally true. Maybe Jesus never said some of, or any of, the things written there. Maybe his disciples misunderstood him; maybe they embelished posthumously. The disciples wanted a Messiah, and not just in the floaty, spiritual sense. They were waiting for, and expecting any moment, someone coming with power and might to free them once and for all. I think every writer of the NT books did think He was coming SOON - soon, like tomorrow's ice cream! Not "soon", like in God-time. Can you imagine telling Paul that two thousand years from now, people will still be waiting and saying "He's coming soon!" ?

And here's another problem. You say that Christians have often studied other religions and found them to be false. But what makes, say, the teachings of Islam any more unfounded that the teachings of Christianity? Sure, it's not hard for me to read something from Islam, or *insert any religion here* and argue, "That's absurd!" But I could do that - I have! - with Christianity. So, what makes - to you - Christianity stand up to such scrutiny, while other religions fail?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you.

Dearest sister Emerald and I call you that because I sincerely believe that you still are;

Here's the thing, though. Was it likely, having been brought up in a "Christian" home (even if it wasn't "the real thing", as you now see it), was it likely that you would seek out a faith that was diametrically opposed to Christianity? Being brought up Catholic still put you in close proximity to the ideas you now accept, even if it wasn't (in your view) the real thing. How much less likely would it be for you to grow up Catholic and become a Moslem? Or a Buddhist? See, such conversions are way more rare.

Also, the assertion that Jesus was either the Real Thing or a nutcase only holds water when you presuppose that the Bible is totally true. Maybe Jesus never said some of, or any of, the things written there. Maybe his disciples misunderstood him; maybe they embelished posthumously. The disciples wanted a Messiah, and not just in the floaty, spiritual sense. They were waiting for, and expecting any moment, someone coming with power and might to free them once and for all. I think every writer of the NT books did think He was coming SOON - soon, like tomorrow's ice cream! Not "soon", like in God-time. Can you imagine telling Paul that two thousand years from now, people will still be waiting and saying "He's coming soon!" ?

And here's another problem. You say that Christians have often studied other religions and found them to be false. But what makes, say, the teachings of Islam any more unfounded that the teachings of Christianity? Sure, it's not hard for me to read something from Islam, or *insert any religion here* and argue, "That's absurd!" But I could do that - I have! - with Christianity. So, what makes - to you - Christianity stand up to such scrutiny, while other religions fail?

Let me answer the first paragraph first.

Here's the thing, though. Was it likely, having been brought up in a "Christian" home (even if it wasn't "the real thing", as you now see it), was it likely that you would seek out a faith that was diametrically opposed to Christianity? Being brought up Catholic still put you in close proximity to the ideas you now accept, even if it wasn't (in your view) the real thing. How much less likely would it be for you to grow up Catholic and become a Moslem? Or a Buddhist? See, such conversions are way more rare.

That might be in the slightest True. However you do not know the whole of the situation. I was basically brought up in a Secular home. I was just telling my wife yesterday that I was Christian in name only. You could have queried me about Jesus and God and I really did not have a clue over whether either one of them was God. Sadly we did not attend Church for various long winded reasons we will not get into here. Sure about once every ten years a Wedding would come along or a funeral. Then I'd go. I remember going to an AA meeting with a friends friend and couldn't figure out why I was being drawn to listen to the Sermon. I could have cared less. I could even less tell you what they were talking about. God had another opinion.

I couldn't have told you anything about Christianity other than I believed that there was indeed a God. Although I was really sure He was way too busy to be bothered with me. What with running the Universe and all. He was kind of the displaced really nice guy in the sky who stayed out of mans affairs for the most part. I had absolutely no idea who Jesus was. I had some inkling He might have something to do with heaven yet I wasn't too entirely sure. I did really enjoy reading these Biblical Encyclopedias as a wee child. I sincerely Loved King David and knew I was named after him. I was mysteriously drawn to this charecter of the King of Israel.

When I first began to date, as the Lord would have it, I actually ended up with the strangest girls . They all knew who God was and always wanted to discuss Him with me. Isn't Jesus way cool, He's leading us even when we think were just into Apologetics and proving Christians wrong. Or just out for our own interests.

So I eventually meet my wife and then I begin to practice. You see, thats what your supposed to do, sigh...... Settle down get comfortable and then practice a Religion. Ay, Yi, Yi, Yi... America is so messed up. I was dreaming about all the Creature comforts I was going to have and the Great job. The 2.5 kids, the white picket fence. The McMansion and the Beamer in the drive, sigh...... Lord fogive me. However God always has another plan in the works and throws a huge monkey wrench into the best laid plans. He is there in our tragedies, our failures, our Tribulations offering us another way. A way not born of self.

So I began to practice a Religion. However this Religion was lifeless, dead, and cold to me. It brought no life. Just a practice. That made me feel like I was doing the right thing. It was laced with all kinds of other aspects and I would speak much the same way that you do. What's wrong with Islam? So what if a Bhuddist see's it differently than I? I would often race out of Church on Sunday, and I went every Sunday like rote, to be the first out of the parking lot. So I could meet up with some friends of mine and watch the Football game over mass quantities of Beer and foul expressions as well as demeaning sexual jokes.

You see I was indeed dead. A dead man walking. I had not received the Grace of God nor did I want it. I liked myself way too much. I had not received the life of Christ simply because I couldn't be sure whether or not He had died for me nor was Ressurected.

I was making an offering and dogon' it. It was Good enough for God. Why wouldn't God want what I had to offer? Why He'd practically have to be nuts not to take it. I mean I was Right with God dogon' it. Surely I was so very much better than those folks I drank with every Sunday. I went to Church.

Sorry for rambling.

I had no clue what Christianity was about. I was Christian in name only. I had a practice and Religion just like a Bhuddist or a Muslim.

I had no close proximity to the Truth at all. Despite my living in a Nation that professed Christianity. The Truth has nothing to do with Religion or ones Nations profession. The Truth is Jesus Christ and His Gospel. Conversions of Muslims and Bhuddists are probably happening at a faster clip than they are in the Western, supposed, Christian Nations. Know why? They can more readily see the lie. They don't have as many distractions. The Western Nations have an abudance that keeps them from Christ. It a smokescreen to cover the lie and make us feel as if we have it all and are not in need.

However God has something to say about this;

Re

[Tribulation]

I have answered this SO many times. And I say the same thing here as I have elsewhere: you act as if Christianity were the only religion. What if Islam or Hinuism is right? You'd have realised there's a god, but picked the wrong faith - so off to hell with you! The same as me. If there is a god, you've got hundreds of religions to pick from. How can you be sure which is the right one? Alternatively, there is a God but humans have never got it right. Or there is no god at all. Either way, if Mormonism was the right answer, or Mayan sun-worship, you're in just as much trouble as me. And given what I know about mythology and human nature - I think the odds are in my favour

Yes, we could argue all these things. What if 'Bhuddism' is the one true religion? Then all those religions who believe in God in some form are wrong! I agree - my example loses it's value when you look at it in this respect. The problem is, neither of us believe these religions to be true. Both of us have ruled these religions out - so why bring them into my example in the first place?

The original topic of the conversation is 'Atheistic Lives' - and since we are on a Christian Forum - then the debate is between Christians and Atheists - so I believe my example does have value.

And as I said to 'emeraldgirl', it was never my intent to ultimately convert you or any other athesit with this argument. And to be honest, my example (call it Pascal's Wager, if you must) will never save anyone by itself.

Rather, my intent was to show you the consequences of choosing 'the wrong side' and make you think about how much you stand to lose if there is a God.

[Tribulation]

Tribulation, I'm not secondeve, but I wanted to comment on a few things here.

First, I think it is great that you came from Atheism and are happier with your life now as a Christian. But there are others who have gone in the opposite direction. Lots of people leave Christianity. Oh, I know, the Christians will say they weren't "true" believers. They were as certain as you are. So, if they weren't "true" believers, then every Christian here is in trouble, because you might just think your a Christian, but you really aren't a true one.

Absolutely, I agree - There may be some 'christians' here that are in trouble!

Matthew 7:22 - "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

Matthew 7:23 - "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

And I believe that these same verses do apply for the 'others who have gone in the opposite direction'. God never knew them.

Second, there are non-Christians who have no "empty space that can never be filled". Conversely, I know Christians who still keep trying to fill an empty space. Becoming a Christian is not an auto-fix for any problem you have.

Again the same thing applies - Does the Lord know these 'christians' who still keep trying to fill an empty space? I think not -

John 6:35 - "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

John 6:36 - "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not."

Third, there are not two possibilities as you outlined above. There are many. You could be wrong, but you don't think you are. I could be wrong. Maybe the Moslem is right. If so, you are the Infidel, and me too.

See my reply to secondeve. There's no point in repeating myself!

Fourth, even if there were two choices as in Pascal's Wager, you can't be a Christian on logic alone. If you could, okay, here, I'll wager it's all true and you are right. There. Now my spot in Heaven is secured. You know you can't be a Christian just because it would be "hell to pay" if it turns out to be true. You can't make a choice for faith because of Pascal's Wager, even if it were the only two potential choices. You can only be a Christian in your whole being. So, no non-Christian is likely to go...."Say! You're right! All along I never realized I'm in deep, sorry trouble for ever and ever if I'm wrong about the Christian thing! Better become one, quick!"

Absolutely, you can never be saved by logic. That was never my intent, I never believed that I would ultimately convert you or any other athesit with this argument. And to be honest, my example (call it Pascal's Wager, if you must) will never save anyone by itself.

Rather, my intent was to show you the consequences of choosing 'the wrong side' and make you think about how much you stand to lose if there is a God.

Edited September 1, 2006 by Tribulation

[cjrose]

Isn't anyone else crazy in love with Jesus today??? Everyday???