Openly Curious Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 5, 2006 That is your opinion worm, I welcomed and asked for all opinions not knowing who was going to respond. the verse was about retaining and remitting sins not on confessionals. I did not intend to offend you and that was not the spirit in which I spoke from. i did read all of your posts with and open mind. but I did not agree with them just as you read what I had to say and now you are saying, that I only accept what I want to accept instead of your view. Well in this regards I could say the same thing about you but I am not. I thought by clarifying what my thoughts were towards the verse you would see where I was coming from but you do not like my view. but that is okay we don't have to agree we are both free moral agents who can freely choose what to accept or reject. OC You are entitled to your opinion but if you are so certain your opinion is right and the opinion of the historic orthodox church is wrong why do you even bother to ask the question? sw Reread my first post in which I said "Why". I want to see if I am Balanced to see if others came to the same conclusions that I had in my personal studies. And I have leaned in my conclusions thus far the way I did based on my study material on the verse and listening to others views here in the thread. I have learned that I am not always right on any given subject or text of scriptures and I certainly don't claim that here nor suggesting such an idea. When I am uncertain about things I like to match my conclusions on the subject up to see if what my views are on the subject are in the same train of thoughts as others so I ask in hopes to learn thing for my own benefit. I do not accept every single view that someone has to tell me. But at other times I may accept what you have to say based upon my observations of what scripture is meaning it depends. again i am sorry you are offended or seem to be rejected but you should not take this personal. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2006 That is your opinion worm, I welcomed and asked for all opinions not knowing who was going to respond. the verse was about retaining and remitting sins not on confessionals. I did not intend to offend you and that was not the spirit in which I spoke from. i did read all of your posts with and open mind. but I did not agree with them just as you read what I had to say and now you are saying, that I only accept what I want to accept instead of your view. Well in this regards I could say the same thing about you but I am not. I thought by clarifying what my thoughts were towards the verse you would see where I was coming from but you do not like my view. but that is okay we don't have to agree we are both free moral agents who can freely choose what to accept or reject. OC You are entitled to your opinion but if you are so certain your opinion is right and the opinion of the historic orthodox church is wrong why do you even bother to ask the question? sw Reread my first post in which I said "Why". I want to see if I am Balanced to see if others came to the same conclusions that I had in my personal studies. And I have leaned in my conclusions thus far the way I did based on my study material on the verse and listening to others views here in the thread. I have learned that I am not always right on any given subject or text of scriptures and I certainly don't claim that here nor suggesting such an idea. When I am uncertain about things I like to match my conclusions on the subject up to see if what my views are on the subject are in the same train of thoughts as others so I ask in hopes to learn thing for my own benefit. I do not accept every single view that someone has to tell me. But at other times I may accept what you have to say based upon my observations of what scripture is meaning it depends. again i am sorry you are offended or seem to be rejected but you should not take this personal. OC I am not the least bit offended. I am merely saying that if you don't want my opinion then don't solicite my response when you start a thread. Like I said, if you only want views that support your own you should say so. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 5, 2006 That is your opinion worm, I welcomed and asked for all opinions not knowing who was going to respond. the verse was about retaining and remitting sins not on confessionals. I did not intend to offend you and that was not the spirit in which I spoke from. i did read all of your posts with and open mind. but I did not agree with them just as you read what I had to say and now you are saying, that I only accept what I want to accept instead of your view. Well in this regards I could say the same thing about you but I am not. I thought by clarifying what my thoughts were towards the verse you would see where I was coming from but you do not like my view. but that is okay we don't have to agree we are both free moral agents who can freely choose what to accept or reject. OC You are entitled to your opinion but if you are so certain your opinion is right and the opinion of the historic orthodox church is wrong why do you even bother to ask the question? sw Reread my first post in which I said "Why". I want to see if I am Balanced to see if others came to the same conclusions that I had in my personal studies. And I have leaned in my conclusions thus far the way I did based on my study material on the verse and listening to others views here in the thread. I have learned that I am not always right on any given subject or text of scriptures and I certainly don't claim that here nor suggesting such an idea. When I am uncertain about things I like to match my conclusions on the subject up to see if what my views are on the subject are in the same train of thoughts as others so I ask in hopes to learn thing for my own benefit. I do not accept every single view that someone has to tell me. But at other times I may accept what you have to say based upon my observations of what scripture is meaning it depends. again i am sorry you are offended or seem to be rejected but you should not take this personal. OC I am not the least bit offended. I am merely saying that if you don't want my opinion then don't solicite my response when you start a thread. Like I said, if you only want views that support your own you should say so. sw Good grief st. worm hang it up I never said I didn't want your views did you not read my last post. And I am not soliciting anyone response. I welcome all responses but don't mean i will agree with all of them. let it go and move on. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2006 the historic orthodox church The historic orthodox church agrees with OC, in the view of many. Supporters of the idea of confession and absolution have been vigorously gainsaid since the fourteenth century, which was not long after auricular confession was enforced by law in the thirteenth century! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2006 That is your opinion worm, I welcomed and asked for all opinions not knowing who was going to respond. the verse was about retaining and remitting sins not on confessionals. I did not intend to offend you and that was not the spirit in which I spoke from. i did read all of your posts with and open mind. but I did not agree with them just as you read what I had to say and now you are saying, that I only accept what I want to accept instead of your view. Well in this regards I could say the same thing about you but I am not. I thought by clarifying what my thoughts were towards the verse you would see where I was coming from but you do not like my view. but that is okay we don't have to agree we are both free moral agents who can freely choose what to accept or reject. OC You are entitled to your opinion but if you are so certain your opinion is right and the opinion of the historic orthodox church is wrong why do you even bother to ask the question? sw Reread my first post in which I said "Why". I want to see if I am Balanced to see if others came to the same conclusions that I had in my personal studies. And I have leaned in my conclusions thus far the way I did based on my study material on the verse and listening to others views here in the thread. I have learned that I am not always right on any given subject or text of scriptures and I certainly don't claim that here nor suggesting such an idea. When I am uncertain about things I like to match my conclusions on the subject up to see if what my views are on the subject are in the same train of thoughts as others so I ask in hopes to learn thing for my own benefit. I do not accept every single view that someone has to tell me. But at other times I may accept what you have to say based upon my observations of what scripture is meaning it depends. again i am sorry you are offended or seem to be rejected but you should not take this personal. OC I am not the least bit offended. I am merely saying that if you don't want my opinion then don't solicite my response when you start a thread. Like I said, if you only want views that support your own you should say so. sw Good grief st. worm hang it up I never said I didn't want your views did you not read my last post. And I am not soliciting anyone response. I welcome all responses but don't mean i will agree with all of them. let it go and move on. OC Your first mistake was accusing Lutherans and Roman Catholics of trying to hijack your thread rather than just say you appreciate their answers and letting it go at that. That was just plain rude and disingenuous. Then you wanted to argue that my answers were not valid for you because you are not "Lutheran or Catholic" which I found to be equally rude and dishonest. When you post questions you are soliciting responses. If you don't grasp that then I just don't know what to tell you. I hate to keep repeating myself but if you don't want responses that you may disagree with you need to preface your questions by saying I only want responses that a fundamentalist evangelical might agree with. Its very clear you only wanted someone to prop up your own view and you really did not want honest responses. I could care less if you agree with me or not. What I resent was the thing you implied about my response, that I was trying to somehow hijack your thread by giving a sincere response. How much more dishonest can you be? sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2006 a fundamentalist evangelical A contradiction in terms, if not prolixity. In any case, even Lutherans, like all Protestants, should acknowledge sola Scriptura and justify their beliefs from Scripture only, not from 'Fathers' or from what is fondly imagined, against so much practical evidence to the contrary, to be 'the church'. And it is totally impossible to justify auricular confession or absolution from Scriptura. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightofJesus Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 362 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/04/1955 Share Posted September 5, 2006 People should not be encouraged to leave the church just because theirs has fallen into apostacy. No good can come from removing yourself from Christ's church. An apostate church is not Christ's, but Christ's enemy, and must be treated as such by Christians, even if that means having no fellowship at all. The principle in both OT and NT is to have nothing to do with false teachers. If OT command was still applicable, many 'pastors' would have to be stoned! (And as many of them are legalistic Judaisers, they could hardly complain if they were!) I did not say they should stay at their apostate churches, just that they should find new ones. Are you of the anti-church movement? sw Why do you call it an anti-church movement You continually bash those that are seeking the Lord in a way that would not be hindered by bad teaching. The Holy Spirit by far is the best teacher and leader we could ever have How can we be anti-church when WE ARE the CHURCH. You are so bound in your teachings by Luther who caused a great spliting of the church in my viewing, my mother is Lutheran and she is so cold hearted I can't even talk with her, that is what Luther has done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2006 I'm certainly not as well versed in the scriptures as all of you. However, I believe there is scriptural support in the Book of Matthew to show that there's been a precedent for the confession of sin to an agrieved bretheren. Matthew 18: 15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. 17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Yours in Christ Jesus, Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 5, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2006 I'm certainly not as well versed in the scriptures as all of you. However, I believe there is scriptural support in the Book of Matthew to show that there's been a precedent for the confession of sin to an agrieved bretheren. That has already been mentioned, as can be seen. Even high church people admit that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drbelitz Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Jesus is only speaking to his apostles here, the first bishops(priests) of the church. Jesus gave them the power to forgive the sins of others, or not to forgive the sins of others. we as laypersons do not have these powers, and God does not work through us to do this, only the Bishops and priests of the church who are in direct succession to the first apostles. History is crystal clear on this matter and nothing else was taught until after the revolt of luther in the 16th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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