Incredible Interview

[EricH]

Eric, we almost always agree and so I find it troubling that so many Christians don't seem to exercise discernment when it comes to this man.

I have seen 2 extreems in regards to Rick Warren.

1. Accepting everything he says at face value

2. Villanizing him so that nothing he says has any value

First, nobody (and I mean nobody) writes a book for any reason other than money. The entire industry is motivated by money, which is why modern translations of a book written thousands of years ago are copyrighted and you pay out the nose for a copy of the NIV. No publisher is going to publish a book he doesn't think will make his corporation money. I do have inside information on that, but you dont need inside info, just common business sense! Now, I believe Rick when he says he doesn't take a penny in royalties; I have to, he beats that drum everywhere he goes. For some men, it's not the money that drives them (pardon the pun), it could be the noteriety, the power, who knows what it is in Rick's case. He is not an altruist, of that I am certain.

It may be that the publisher wants to make money. It is after all a business. But I have met many authors who write because they believe they have something of value to share. I do not know Rick Warren's heart. I believe you work in this industry. If is so bad, why would you work in it?

Second, Rick's heresies are well-known. His Purpose Driven theology is splitting churches and causing confusion among ministers of every denomination. I have been to his "church," and while he draws a crowd, if it weren't for the coffee and snacks, they would go home hungry.

Well,they are well publicized. But I have found in many cases that when you dig into the accusation, what is asserted was either never said, or taken out of context. I am not saying he is perfect. But what I find interesting is that even when you provide a quote from his book that directly contradicts the accusation of heresy, the accuser is not willing to hear it. This tells me that the motives for the accusations run deeper than a concern for truth. What those motives are, I do not know

Third, of course we are all here for the purpose of glorifying G-d. What I resent in the extreme are people like Rick Warren and John Maxwell, who have made tons of money for worldly corporations promoting Biblical principles. I have never seen a self-help book mentioned in the Bible anywhere. But I do read about being unequally yoked. We all apply that principle to marriage, but I think we need to consider it in light of business. Rick Warren and others write books being hocked by non-Christians to the Christian sub-culture. How dense is the church, anyway? We get snookered into spending upwards of $30.00 for a book light on Scripture and heavy on a feel-good-about-yourself gospel. Don't think for one second that the publisher isn't pulling the author's strings. It happens all the time. I get manuscripts with notes from agents and publishers telling me to "clean this up," "make it interesting for the 20-somethings," "make this more positive," and so on. Warren appeares on Larry King and FoxNews for one reason: to sell his books. He may not take the money, but he is working for his publisher, and his publisher wants to make money. And a good author will use any means necessary to sell a book, even his own family problems.

What is ironic about your statement above is that in PDL itself RW speaks agains "self-help" books and point people into discovering what God's purposes for them are. The bible never mentions bathrooms. I still use them

Fouthly, Jesus stated His prurpose clearly:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,--Luke 4:18

He came to PREACH, TEACH and HEAL. His followers were told to do much the same thing:

These were not the only things Jesus said He was here to do. He came to seek and save that which was lost, He came not to be served but to serve. I find nothing in the 5 purposes RW states that fall outside of this: Worship, Evangelism, Discipleship, Service, Fellowship. What am I missing here?

I may slice Rick's baloney a little fine, but as believers, we are told in 1 Cor. 11:31,

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

This, of course, is mentioned in connection with the Lord's Table, but the principle is sound. We to judge one another's fruit or actions. I don't judge Rick's eternal soul, I can only comment on what I see and hear him saying.

Sorry, but I wouldn't buy anything from a snake oil saleman, either.

What I meant by 'slicing the baloney a little thin' is that you are parsing his words so carefully as to extract meaning he himself did not intend

[Kabowd]

First, nobody (and I mean nobody) writes a book for any reason other than money.

Marnie, I agree with many of the things you have said, but I did want to bring this up. For one, why is it wrong to earn money writing a book? If you're using the gifts God has given you (to write), and you feel you have something to share with others (information or for entertainment value), why would this be wrong? How is it any different than a secretary who files papers and receives a paycheck? I don't know a single secretary who offers her services for free, nor any who does it for the love of organization

My point is, if you're going to fault Warren for writing a book and earning money off of it, you'll have to fault every other person throughout history who has ever written anything and profited from it. I can certainly agree with you that what he writes may not be worth the paper it's printed on, but I don't see the validity in faulting him for profiting from something he worked to create. Secondly, you cannot assume that every book ever written is for the sole purpose of making money. This may be a factor (even a large factor), but there is also alot to be said for those who sincerely do want to educate others or share insight that God has revealed to them. One example that comes to my mind would be Francis Schaeffer and his book "True Spirituality". This book came about out of necessity and was basically compilations of various lectures he had given over a period of 2-3 years. Thousands of people have benefited spiritually, intellectually and emotionally due to the teachings Schaeffer shared through his many books. Do you fault him or his ministry for the financial profits they made as the result therof?

Again, I think we can certainly pinpoint doctrinal errors and address specific things that Warren has stated or done that contradict Scripture. I think we have to be careful, though, when we cross over to making assumptions about his (or anyone's) motivations and intentions.

I, of all people, would never want anybody to work for nothing! My point was about being UNEQUALLY YOKED. Rick is a Christian (yes, I do believe that) and he writes books for a non-Christian publishing house. Zondervan was sold off years ago. It is impossible to not be driven by the profit motive in the publishing industry. It costs a lot of money to put a book out. You would be surprised how much compromise an author has to do in order to get his book out. When Rick goes on TV, he is on there promoting a book, I don't care what network it is or what the circumstance is. His words are as carefully scripted as his "theology," so as to appeal to the greatest number of people possible. How do you think an author gets paid? Just for writing a book? No way. Part of the deal is interviews and book signings and speaking engagements. I'll guarantee Rick travels with handlers who primp him, advise him on what to wear in front of certain groups and even on what to say and what not to say.

I am glad you brought up Francis Schaeffer. His books were published by Christian publishing houses (Crossway, IVP, etc) not secular ones. His books, while I love them, are generally not considered popular literature. During his heyday, he did not appear with the talking heads, giving his opinions on a variety of subjects. He is the "thinking Christian's" writer. Schaeffer is one who was NOT motivated by profit. His entire life portrayed that. He was humility personified. And he never spoke in sound bites. Rick should take a lesson from Schaeffer.

Ahhh, okay on all of this we agree. I thought you were saying every book by any author was purely motivated by money, etc. etc. Yes, I understand how the publishing industry works. This carries over into the music industry as well. Many Christian artists who are signed with secular labels will be faced with difficult decisions regarding their material and it's subsequent promotion. I don't necessarily hold that it is wrong to be paid by "secular" companies, but I do believe it's wrong to compromise your faith in order to do so.

I also agree with what you said regarding Schaeffer. I wish his works were more well-known and read, our culture would be much better off if we grasped and lived the principles he taught. Of course, this would mean sacrifice, self-denial and the risk of rejection. I doubt any of that will end up on bumper stickers or t-shirts anytime soon

[EricH]

1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

OK,

Lets look at one of the passages you provided and see if it teaches that God is not sovereign over evil (i.e. He is in control of it so that His eternal purposes are always achieved). I don't see anyplace inthe passage that states God is not in control of evil. All it states is that it does not reside in HIm. It is not a part of His character

1 John 1:5 must be balanced against Isaiah 45:7 which states:

I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 CSB

This tells me that God's control over good and evil is accomplished in 2 different ways. Goodness emminates from God's character. It is "in Him". Evil does not reside in God's character. He therefore exerts HIs control over it through secondary agencies He permits events to take place, but still maintains soverign control over them.

If you want to continue a discussion of God and evil start a new thread so we don't hijack this one

[EricH]

What I meant by 'slicing the baloney a little thin' is that you are parsing his words so carefully as to extract meaning he himself did not intend

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but when he quotes New Age leaders, and lets them speak regularly in his "church", it is obvious that he "means" the same thing they do by these statements and doctrines.

Paul quoted pagan theologians of his day. Did that make him a pagan? It is not the source that makes something wrong, but the content. If I can use a speaker or writer from the audience I am trying to reach to make my point, I will do so. Provide an example where RW quoted a new age concept that is clearly anti-biblical and agreed with it. Your example of devine sovereignty is not a good one. That is a subject that is hotly debated by believers of all ilk

[Marnie]

I have seen 2 extreems in regards to Rick Warren.

1. Accepting everything he says at face value

2. Villanizing him so that nothing he says has any value

It may be that the publisher wants to make money. It is after all a business. But I have met many authors who write because they believe they have something of value to share. I do not know Rick Warren's heart. I believe you work in this industry. If is so bad, why would you work in it?

Well,they are well publicized. But I have found in many cases that when you dig into the accusation, what is asserted was either never said, or taken out of context. I am not saying he is perfect. But what I find interesting is that even when you provide a quote from his book that directly contradicts the accusation of heresy, the accuser is not willing to hear it. This tells me that the motives for the accusations run deeper than a concern for truth. What those motives are, I do not know

What is ironic about your statement above is that in PDL itself RW speaks agains "self-help" books and point people into discovering what God's purposes for them are. The bible never mentions bathrooms. I still use them

These were not the only things Jesus said He was here to do. He came to seek and save that which was lost, He came not to be served but to serve. I find nothing in the 5 purposes RW states that fall outside of this: Worship, Evangelism, Discipleship, Service, Fellowship. What am I missing here?

What I meant by 'slicing the baloney a little thin' is that you are parsing his words so carefully as to extract meaning he himself did not intend

Rick certainly is a lightning-rod, isn't he? We agree on that, you either love him or hate him.

I work in the publishing industry for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I am well paid. I make no bones about it; I wouldn't do this if wasn't paid a wagon-load of money. The Lord opened the door and I walked through it. But, I don't peddle the gospel to make money; my clients are all (well, almost all) in the popular fiction field. I would NOT work in the so-called "Christian" book business if the publishing house is owned by a secular company, however. Even I have scrupples.

My motive for my opposition to Rick is simple: I believe he teaches heresy, his church-growth theology splits churches, he waters down the gospel, he is weak on sin and repentance and when I visited his "church," I was propositioned by one of his youth ministers. That kind of left a bad taste in my mouth, you know?

Eric, words mean things. You don't have to parse them for Rick's meaning to be clear.

And yes, Jesus came for more reasons than the verse I quoted. But they were all summed up by the one verse.

[EricH]

I work in the publishing industry for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I am well paid.

Preach it sister

[EricH]

And yes, Jesus came for more reasons than the verse I quoted. But they were all summed up by the one verse.

So, how do the purposes outlined in his book constiute heresy? I am still not seeing it. How do Service, Worship, Evangelism, Fellowship, and Discipleship contradict this passage? What is heretical about them?

[EricH]

OK,

Lets look at one of the passages you provided and see if it teaches that God is not sovereign over evil (i.e. He is in control of it so that His eternal purposes are always achieved). I don't see anyplace inthe passage that states God is not in control of evil. All it states is that it does not reside in HIm. It is not a part of His character

1 John 1:5 must be balanced against Isaiah 45:7 which states:

I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 CSB

This tells me that God's control over good and evil is accomplished in 2 different ways. Goodness emminates from God's character. It is "in Him". Evil does not reside in God's character. He therefore exerts HIs control over it through secondary agencies He permits events to take place, but still maintains soverign control over them.

If you want to continue a discussion of God and evil start a new thread so we don't hijack this one

"Before you were born, God planned this moment in your life. It is no accident thay you are holding this book." - Rick Waren, PDL 2002.

"This book has arrived in your life at the right and perfect time...Everything happens in perfect order, and the arrival of this book in your life is no exception." - Neale Donald Walsch Conversations with God: Book 2, 1997.

So then God "sends" people to hell? People according to the doctrine of these two, people going to hell must also be part of God's "Perfect Order", since "nothing happens by accident."

They at least seem to be saying that nothing happens that was not intended to happen, and you also seem to be agreeing with that basic line of thought. Again, the consequences of that teaching is that God "intended" for Adam and Eve to fall, and that he "intends" for some (in fact specific people) to die lost, since nothing happens by accident.

God says something quite different.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Matt. 23:37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

PLease start a new topic

[Marnie]

I work in the publishing industry for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I am well paid.

Preach it sister

Well, do you work for nothing?

[EricH]

I work in the publishing industry for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I am well paid.

Preach it sister

Well, do you work for nothing?

I was agreeing with you. Notice the high five. I guess compared to what I used to make in the secular sector, I do work for nothing