Incredible Interview

[EricH]

Eric,

Video clip of Rick on Charlie Rose's show. Notice how Rick will say some things that are true, then turn around and make false statements. He really is "all things to all men!" My friend Ingred Schlueter says this of the interview: "Warren exhibits a skilled use of the dialectic. True statement. False statement. Then a synthesis of the two that produces rank theological error. Besides being a powerful tool in the Russian Revolution, the use of the dialectic has been useful in American revolutions in education, business and now evangelicalism."

[url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/PDLreview-SB.htm]A Purpose Driven Life

[LadyRaven]

Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity- Rick Warren, May 2005.

For reference, the fundamentals he is referring to:

<a href="http://""" target="_blank"></a>The Five Fundamentals of Faith

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. The Virgin Birth.

3. The Blood Atonement.

4. The Bodily Resurrection.

5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.

Legalistic and narrow? The first 4 of those are necessary for salvation, and the fifth is said so in scripture itself.(If his birth wasn't virgin, then he wouldn't be the son of God promised by God through Isaiah.) But Rick Warren calls these 5 points "legalistic and narrow."

That all but disqualifies him as an Orthodox, Bible believing Christian. Not my words, his own teaching.

The document referenced by Warren is more than the list I'm sure (I'm still looking for it) but here is the whole paragraph from warren

"Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones."

he's saying FUNDAMENTALISM is a legalistic and narrow view of Christianity. Why he had to go and muck his point up by adding the information about the roots of the movement is beyond me. But I believe that at least in this aspect of life he is correct...FUNDAMENTALISM is legalistic and narrow. I know I'm not a heretic, so go ahead and call me one and it won't matter a lick to me.

Like I said, there is enough to criticise of Warren, we don't need to misrepresent him or go off into left field looking for things which aren't there.

[Marnie]

Can you give me one example that I don't have to dig through a ton of stuff to find? Just the heretical statement and a citation

Nope. That would be too easy. Take your time...read every word. The "worship leader's" sight in particularly interesting, for the discerning, ciritical thinker.

Aw, Eric, I can't do everybody's work for them! Now I know you...I would never want to deprive you the pleasure of learning something. I know you to be a critical thinker.

Seriously, I have been looking at the dude for about a year or so and there has been much MISinformation about Rick. I have no doubt that he IS saved, in fact. His teaching is not all bad, but rather it is a mix of old heresy and new age mumbo jumbo. In the '80's it was that pastor from Korea (Yongi Cho?). Today it's Rick Warren. Obviously I hate false teaching, no matter how well intentioned. But I also hate a lazy church that latches onto the theology dejour. I've only been saved 5 years or so, and even I have noticed the tendency of church "leaders" to jump on every bandwagon except the Biblical one.

[EricH]

Can you give me one example that I don't have to dig through a ton of stuff to find? Just the heretical statement and a citation

Nope. That would be too easy. Take your time...read every word. The "worship leader's" sight in particularly interesting, for the discerning, ciritical thinker.

Aw, Eric, I can't do everybody's work for them! Now I know you...I would never want to deprive you the pleasure of learning something. I know you to be a critical thinker.

Seriously, I have been looking at the dude for about a year or so and there has been much MISinformation about Rick. I have no doubt that he IS saved, in fact. His teaching is not all bad, but rather it is a mix of old heresy and new age mumbo jumbo. In the '80's it was that pastor from Korea (Yongi Cho?). Today it's Rick Warren. Obviously I hate false teaching, no matter how well intentioned. But I also hate a lazy church that latches onto the theology dejour. I've only been saved 5 years or so, and even I have noticed the tendency of church "leaders" to jump on every bandwagon except the Biblical one.

I understand what you are saying, but that is my real struggle with this whole topic. People are free and easy with accusations of heresy until you ask them for a concrete example. Then they will point you to thr writings of others that are not well thought and frequently mis-represent him. The can't or simply refuse to provide a citation that is verifiable

I have yet to find a person who can give me a concrete statement where Rick Warren made a heretical statement

[Marnie]

I understand what you are saying, but that is my real struggle with this whole topic. People are free and easy with accusations of heresy until you ask them for a concrete example. Then they will point you to thr writings of others that are not well thought and frequently mis-represent him. The can't or simply refuse to provide a citation that is verifiable

I have yet to find a person who can give me a concrete statement where Rick Warren made a heretical statement

Eric, you need to study the man's body of work. I dont mean to be obtuse, but even Satan quoted Scritpure in the Bible to Eve. In that case, he misquoted it. But that is how false teachers work. They're overall theology is false but it is liberally sprinkled with truth and fine sounding sound bites. When Rick makes statements like, "We were put here to glorify G-d," who can argue with that? But you need to study, in-depth his concept of worhsip, for example. I am using that as an example only. That's the nature of deception, you see.

[buckthesystem]

Lots of "me" and "I" and "us" in the piece, but very little Christ. Rick will never be effective for the Kingdom until he preaches the GOSPEL. I pray for his wife and wish them well.

Fox had been running a lot of Rick Warren interviews for good reason: Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Zondervan, publishers and hockers of Warren's books. From the Lighthouse has a good article on this as does Frontline.

The piece is full of theological errors:

The chief aim of Christians is not preparation for eternity. Eternity is prepared for us and we have been prepared by Christ. The purpose of our lives is to glorify G-d and to be obedient to His Word.

We are never told in Scripture to focus on our purpose. We are to focus on Christ. Our purpose comes from a relationship with Him.

Also, nobody's book "all of a sudden" sells 15 million copies. It was carefully crafted to appeal to the greatest number of people possible to make money for the publisher, and the author.

Rick's "nobility" points of giving away all his money, yada, yada, yada have been well documented in the many interviews he has given all over the world. Everybody loves a generous, gregarious man.

You are probably right Marnie, but it was still a lovely article and a pleasure to read.

Really does it matter who owns Zondervan or how suddenly 15 million books were sold? The point is that this author, like others, provides books that are good to read. We need that. And we shouldn't envy what others have but concentrate on being grateful for what we have.

I'm really not criticising you though Marnie. I hope you don't get miffed at that.

[Marnie]

You are probably right Marnie, but it was still a lovely article and a pleasure to read.

Really does it matter who owns Zondervan or how suddenly 15 million books were sold? The point is that this author, like others, provides books that are good to read. We need that. And we shouldn't envy what others have but concentrate on being grateful for what we have.

I'm really not criticising you though Marnie. I hope you don't get miffed at that.

Miffed? Me miffed?

As I pointed out, it does matter who owns Zondervan. As soon as it became owned by a secular company (unequally yoked), profit motive became the number one concern. The same thing can be said for Word Records. Prior to this merger, I am sure they were also motivated by profit, but their target consumers were Christians. After the merger, all bets were off and books needed to be written to appeal to the mass consumer market, of which Christians are just one segment.

Books that are good to read are not necessarily good for the soul. The Purpose Driven concepts, while looking good on paper, have led Rick to produce other products (40 Days to This, 40 Days to That, etc., etc.,) that have torn churches apart. Now, that can't be good. If your chickens are all dead, how can you tell what killed them? You look for tracks in the snow, of course.

My criticism of Rick has nothing to do with envy, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. Again, one feel-good article must be weighed against his body of work.

[buckthesystem]

Quote, Marnie: "If your chickens are all dead, how can you tell what killed them? You look for tracks in the snow, of course".

It was probably the cold and the snow that killed the chickens. You really should have provided a shelter for them.

Seriously though, (getting tired of that phrase) I do get the point. Hopefully one day Christians will be the "mass market". I mean they might be so numerous that companies will cater for them in everything.

[EricH]

I understand what you are saying, but that is my real struggle with this whole topic. People are free and easy with accusations of heresy until you ask them for a concrete example. Then they will point you to thr writings of others that are not well thought and frequently mis-represent him. The can't or simply refuse to provide a citation that is verifiable

I have yet to find a person who can give me a concrete statement where Rick Warren made a heretical statement

Eric, you need to study the man's body of work. I dont mean to be obtuse, but even Satan quoted Scritpure in the Bible to Eve. In that case, he misquoted it. But that is how false teachers work. They're overall theology is false but it is liberally sprinkled with truth and fine sounding sound bites. When Rick makes statements like, "We were put here to glorify G-d," who can argue with that? But you need to study, in-depth his concept of worhsip, for example. I am using that as an example only. That's the nature of deception, you see.

I guess I am a little more careful than others when I make accusations of heresy against a brother in Christ on a public forum. If I did accuse some one, I would be ready with concrete examples. If one is guilty of heresy, those accusing him should be able to produce at least one concrete example of such heresy. The unwillingness to do so says more about the accuser than the one being accused. In my view it is an unbiblical way of dealing with such issues.

I have read Purpose Driven Life, Purpose Driven Church, and used the study "Foundations" which is the theology training they put all of the members through at Saddle Back (Rick Warren's church). While not agreeing 100 percent with him on all he wrote, I found no heresy, or mingling of new age. I have spoken with other pastors on his staff directly and understand the vision. Again no heresy. All I am asking is that those who are making accusations against a brother in Christ, provide concrete examples. I really do not understand this unwillingness to do so. Can someone show me an example of heresy in Purpose Driven Life?

[EricH]

Saints,

As I have prayed about this thread, I feel extremely grieved in spirit. What I have observed here is basically the lampooning of a brother in Christ. His motives were questioned. Accusations of heresy were made without any concrete substantiation. As I prayed, this is the passage God layed on my heart

Don't accept an accusation against an elder unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.

2 Timothy 5:19 CSB

There were plenty of folks here who were willing to serve as witnesses against Pastor Warren, but none were able or willing to provide on example of heresy. As leadership here at Worthy we cannot allow this. We must be biblical in dealing with one another.

I am therefore closing this thread

Love in Christ

Eric