Torture by Red Hot Chili Peppers

[O'Dannyboy]

My biggest concern is for those "political prisoners" who are innocent and were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have no doubt this has always been the dominant concern where interrogations are involved. The important thing is to establish, without a doubt, that the person being interrogated has conspired or acted to harm United States citizens or interests. Some in the inteligence fields might consider coercive interrogation techniques necessary as long as they have a reason to believe that person has information of value. I am beginning to think that interrogations involving national security threats should not be administered by military personell. As I said, it is simply not wise to have the military act as judge and jury in these cases. While the military already is resposible for securing the prisoners and, at this time, administering the interrogations, I think it would be wise for the government to create a council or "tribunal" that does not fall under the command of or answer to the leaders of our military. This tribunal, rather than the military, would then be responsible for establishing what, if any, information the prisoner may have and their level of involvement in activities that pose a threat to U.S. interests/citizens. I understand that our government is going to whatever it considers necessary to protect its interests (aka citizens/taxpayers). But, now it is faced with enough scandals and bad publicity that it must answer for and it is most likely that any tribunal our council that is created will simply be a ghost or straw man to ease the concerns of the press and public.

[buckthesystem]

It is just - in my opinion anyway - warfare should not, in any way include torture.

Buck -

You are missing the point.

The CIA wsn't torturing the guy just to make him miserable or take revenge. They were trying to make him talk.

So does that make it ok then? Sounds rather like you are saying "it is not ok to torture someone to make them miserable or take revenge, but it it fine if you just want to 'make them talk'".

It was the same with the photos that came out of the Abu-whatever prison. The purpose was to get them prisoners to release informatio that could help our effort and prevent more killings of innocents. Of course, these tactics were controversial and condemned by the world at large. (But in another thread, an article out of the UK revealed what the Iraqis are doing to the prisoners now that they have taken over, and the prisoners are begging for the Americans to return. Consider that!)

Oh so that is fine. "we were just trying to get them to release information". I just love the euphemisms: "Controversial tactics condemned by the world at large".

So, there was a lot of flack at what the CIA prisons were doing to the prisoners to get info out of them.

How do you get information out of a terrorist who doesn't want to talk? Be super nice to him? He'll walk all over you! Empty threats? He'll laugh at you. You have to be tough.

So, what they did was make him incredibly, incredibly uncomfortable - without harming his body - until he talks.

As it turned out, he gave away valuable info, as the report states.

So, Buck, how would you get information out of the guy?

I really don't believe how so many people whom I thought were nice, Christian people can say and believe things like this. I'm not getting at you personally Nebula, it just seems to be a horrible mindset that has befallen society and it makes me very sad.

The truth is that I don't have any idea how to get information out of someone other than asking them, and if they don't tell me there's nothing I can do. However, I don't believe that I, or anyone else, has the right to threaten to harm them or actually harm them in the hope that they will then give up information.

I can only repeat that torture doesn't work at all. Sure everybody will "buckle" eventually if they are tortured, but you can never be sure that what they say is accurate as a person being tortured WILL SAY ANYTHING TO MAKE THE PAIN STOP!

You say"As it turned out, he gave away valuable info, as the report states." Well, how can we be sure that anything a person being tortured says is really "valuable information"?

[Marnie]

I can only repeat that torture doesn't work at all. Sure everybody will "buckle" eventually if they are tortured, but you can never be sure that what they say is accurate as a person being tortured WILL SAY ANYTHING TO MAKE THE PAIN STOP!

Buck, are you serious or playing Devil's Advocate here? Do you read anything other than the NY Times and other left leaning papers?

This debate is useless because America does not toruture its prisoners. Period. We engage is coercive interrogation, which is an accepted form of interrogation.

How would you suggest we get information out of suspected terrorists? Pray it out of them? Feed them tea and crumpets? Ask them nicely? You are very good a taking potshots at our military, so why don't you enlighten us? You know, it's easy to repeat things you hear without actually thinking about an issue, then make broad statements and criticize the actions of our military from the comfort of your den or office.

[buckthesystem]

I can only repeat that torture doesn't work at all. Sure everybody will "buckle" eventually if they are tortured, but you can never be sure that what they say is accurate as a person being tortured WILL SAY ANYTHING TO MAKE THE PAIN STOP!

Buck, are you serious or playing Devil's Advocate here? Do you read anything other than the NY Times and other left leaning papers?

This debate is useless because America does not toruture its prisoners. Period. We engage is coercive interrogation, which is an accepted form of interrogation.

How would you suggest we get information out of suspected terrorists? Pray it out of them? Feed them tea and crumpets? Ask them nicely? You are very good a taking potshots at our military, so why don't you enlighten us? You know, it's easy to repeat things you hear without actually thinking about an issue, then make broad statements and criticize the actions of our military from the comfort of your den or office.

Marnie, how do you get that I'm criticising your military, from what I said?

I don't like euphemisms, I think we should all "call a spade a spade". Coercive interrogation IS torture. You must know that. I am not "having a go" at the American military by saying these things. The US military is certainly not unique in this aspect and they do exactly what politicians tell them to do as do all military. It would be hypocritical of me to single out the US military and accuse them of all sorts of things and ignore the actions of other nations' soldiers and I don't do that.

The only thing I am criticising is the seeming mindset of the ordinary person these days (and here I'm DEFINITELY not singling out Americans) that seems to believe that "the rules have changed" and we should no longer follow simple rules of how to treat each other.

[Scarletprayers]

Yes the rules have changed, during wars before now, actual torture was the norm, not playing loud music and letting somebody get cold.

[buckthesystem]

Is the way people were treated in Abu-Graib prison "coercive interrogation"?

Some of you seem to think that the methods of "interrogation" used do not constitute "real" torture - have you never heard of psychological torture?

I am not criticising the American military at all, or the American people or American in general or Israel or anything Israeli. I am, however, criticising the idea that some seem to have adopted that says "torture is OK depending on the circumstances" and then it is "justified" by adding something like "well if it saves one American life......"

No "Silentprayer" the rules of common decency haven't changed, and that is basically what I am talking about.

[nebula]

My goodness, Buck!

What are you going to do when Jesus returns and physically slays people? (read the end of Revelation)

But anyway . . .

You say"As it turned out, he gave away valuable info, as the report states." Well, how can we be sure that anything a person being tortured says is really "valuable information"?

From the article:

He soon began to provide information on key Al Qaeda operators to help us find and capture those responsible for the 9/11 attacks. And one of those men was Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, the mastermind of 9/11.

Unless, of course, you don't believe Khalid Sheikh Muhammad had anything to do with 9/11 . . . .

[billie]

Torture's never okay.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if someone's torturing me, and I really don't know anything, I'll make something up just to get it to stop.

It seems to me that if we want to call ourselves the "good guys", our standards of decency should be maybe just a little higher than the "bad guys".

"If it saves just one American life....." This, to me, sounds like the end justifying the means. We're headed down a slippery slope if we go that route.

[nebula]

It seems to me that if we want to call ourselves the "good guys", our standards of decency should be maybe just a little higher than the "bad guys".

They are. Have you heard what they do to interrogate prisoners?

[Scarletprayers]

Is the way people were treated in Abu-Graib prison "coercive interrogation"?

Some of you seem to think that the methods of "interrogation" used do not constitute "real" torture - have you never heard of psychological torture?

I am not criticising the American military at all, or the American people or American in general or Israel or anything Israeli. I am, however, criticising the idea that some seem to have adopted that says "torture is OK depending on the circumstances" and then it is "justified" by adding something like "well if it saves one American life......"

No "Silentprayer" the rules of common decency haven't changed, and that is basically what I am talking about.

Yes they have, they've improved! Awful horrible torture was the norm in older wars, now most civilized people know that its wrong, and yes your right, I don't think there is anything wrong with psychological torture "under certain circumstances". We are fighting people that hate us because we are not Muslims, they don't mind dying because of that hatred. So getting them cold, and playing loud music considering what they are planning against all people, who wont act, behave and believe the way they do isn't torture in my book, its and irritant.