The coming Messiah

[Guest yod]

One Question who do you say Dan.9:27 is refering to Jesus Christ or the anti-christ

the prince of the people to come.

whatever that means.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

I'm looking at the very same scriptures you are looking at but it says something different to me.

I understand that Yod, that is why I am allowing you to test my patience. You try to make the scriptures "fit your paradigm" instead of examining the scriptures and let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

all of that is good and fine but there is another possibility. What is a Temple without the Holy of Holies? It sure ain't the Temple. I see no reason why the Holy of Holies can't be translated as "sanctuary" and used interchangably with Temple. That is what I see in most of the verses you have given.

You see how with much vehemence we disagree about the Temple. I have no doubt it was the same at the writing of the New Testament. Jesus and ALL the writers of the NT, did NOT use Hieron and Naos interchangeably, as you would like to think. They chose their WORDS carefully, because one means one thing and the other means something entirely different. Naos is NEVER used to refer to the ENTIRE Temple, ONLY to the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place. It was a foregone conclusion that the "sanctuary" would be/was destroyed and that it would remain desolated until the "consummation" of all things. This is why NO MENTION is ever made about a PHYSICAL temple ever again being rebuilt.

Do you not realize that at least a portion (Peter, Revelation) was probably written AFTER 70 A.D.?

Dad Ernie: Regarding Dan 9:27, your interpretation is way off base. The Temple WAS NOT "gradually" destroyed and completely desolated at the consummation. The consummation points ONLY to the end of time.

YOD: Don't know where you get that either. I didn't say it would be gradual (?)

I said:

it says that one will make desolate....until destruction is complete.

I see this as having already been fulfilled once....and I'm not of the opinion that it will happen again...but there is enough room for a possibility. (am I driving you crazy yet?)

Yes, that is what I understood you to say, that is, "someone is going to come and START destroying the Temple, UNTIL it's destruction is complete". Please note that it says "even until the consummation" Daniel is stressing how far out in the future that the sanctuary will remain desolate. So we look in the NT, and we find that God is finished (consummation) when all things are under Christ's feet. That will occur when He returns.

Dad Ernie: You have not addressed the issue of the antecedent for the pronoun "he" either.

Yod: Antecedant? Is that the opposite of cedant? 

What antecedants?

We ain't got no antecedants....

I don't have to show you no stinkin' antecedants!!!!

If you are to understand to whom the "he" in Dan 9:27 is referring (in vs. 9:26) it is necessary to understand the basic rules of "antecedents". The word "he" must match a previously mentioned noun, normally the first immediate noun, but not always, both (as a rule) in gender and number. Of significance here is understanding whether the "he" refers to the "prince who was to come", or "the people of the prince", or the Messiah. Normally it would be the noun "prince", but "prince in this case modifies and identifies the word "people". The word people does not match in gender and number with the word "he". Thus we must look further to the next immediate noun which is the "Messiah".

So setting this aside for the moment, let's consider the "prince". What does the NT say about a "prince" - how about "the Prince and power of the air". If you have any thoughts that it might have been a physical human being, consider "the Prince of Persia" and the other princes mentioned in that context. This is what Daniel understood as who the "prince" was. Jesus made a prophetic pronouncement that the TEMPLE (hieron) and Jerusalem would be completely destroyed. It was God who allowed Satan's "people" to come and destroy the Temple (hieron).

Now consider the "covenant" that would be made at some future date. What do we see in the NT? How about the New Covenant? There is NEVER a mention of Satan making a covenant with anyone and most certainly John would have referenced this fact, but he doesn't.

Before responding, please give these things some thought. Then when you do, please give support for your opposition from the New Testament scriptures.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Brad,

Act1:11 says that He will return in like manner. Or in likeness to how He left. This leaves room for a spiritual likeness just like the law in the old covenant was in likeness or pointed to the Holy Spirit as a spiritual fulfillment to the law.

If you put all the verses pertinent to the Lord's coming again, you will see that it is NOT just a "spiritual" return, but a physical one. This one verse should allay that thought:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

As far as the two witnesses in Rev.11 SDA's do teach what you say, but I heard something that make more sense. The two witnesses being the Jewish Christian and the grafted in olive branch being the gentile Christain. These verses in Rev.11 are highly symbolic and many things have to be considered to get the ful picture of what has already happened. Many are just waiting for scripture to be fulfilled when in fact a good 90% is happening on a daily bases or has already happened in the past.

I agree with you that the two witnesses in Rev. 11 are Jew and Gentile Christians, but this must take place at the time of the "great tribulation" which will be revealed when the "man of sin" is revealed, and the REAL war that the Beast will wage against the saints will begin.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

Why do you assume I oppose that?

You could be as right as anyone else....or as wrong. There are dozens of dozens of scenarios. Yours sounds quite plausible.

I try not to go any further than what the Word actually says. I can still see lots of latitude for what it "might" say.

How could I get a "paradigm" with that? I'm of the belief that when it's all said and done, it will be exactly as the Word has said yet no man will get it right.

Kinda like at His first coming....

ALL the writers of the NT, did NOT use Hieron and Naos interchangeably

I searched it out just as you asked and it looks to me that certainly Luke did.

[Dad Ernie]

One Question who do you say Dan.9:27 is refering to Jesus Christ or the anti-christ

the prince of the people to come.

whatever that means.

Greetings Yod,

Do you know what a Freudian slip is? By your response, it becomes obvious you have made a fopah(sp?), because that is the way you THINK of that verse. It is NOT what it says. Your paradigm has shaped your thinking, instead of allowing the scriptures to do it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

LOL

whatever....

all that says is that it's not important to me.

[Brad]

Greetings Brad,

Act1:11 says that He will return in like manner. Or in likeness to how He left. This leaves room for a spiritual likeness just like the law in the old covenant was in likeness or pointed to the Holy Spirit as a spiritual fulfillment to the law.

If you put all the verses pertinent to the Lord's coming again, you will see that it is NOT just a "spiritual" return, but a physical one.

I would say then that the physical return of Christ happens through our bodies that makes it a physical return but also Spiritual. Our bodies now belonging to Him which makes that His body but with His Spirit in us. Mean while our life remains hidden in Christ in the eyes of the Father so that the Father does not see our sins. The world however see what we do that is why it is very important that we overcome the things of the world and not walk in the flesh so the Jesus can manifest Himself through us.

[BlindSeeker]

Here are some interesting excerpts from Josephus -

Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 1 - THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS;

• Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.
  para. 3 - . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, "O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! 'For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction." But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition.
  
  • They [the seditious Jews] agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that every one despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of any thing, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon. They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon any thing, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity.
    

Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1 - HOW TITUS . . . PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER].

And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

[Dad Ernie]

Thank you Blindseeker,

The articles were quite interesting. I have had the writings of Josephus for a while, but have not read too far into them. They pretty clearly spell out WHO was responsible for the destruction of the Temple, which also means that it will remain desolate till the end of the age.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[BlindSeeker]

Amen, Dad Ernie. Even unto the consummation . . .

For those who do not have a copy of Josephus, here is a couple of links -

Josephus Home Page

Downloadable site for Josephus

This second site is able to made available offline . . . at the bottom of the page click on the - "The Complete Collection of Josephus -- Josephus.zip" Makes it easy to do searches and cut-n-paste.

Peace,

William