Nevin Posted September 29, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 206 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/25/1978 Author Share Posted September 29, 2006 (edited) Deut 30:19 "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" this is the choice i was talking about . And further the life that that God wants us to live Prov 22:4 "Humility and the fear of the LORD bring wealth and honor and life" ; so you see life, wealth and honor go together. That is why i say that those that are poor have made a choice. Deut 20:19 - This was a promise given to national Israel, not every Christian. Furthermore it does not mean that there would not be poor among the Children of Israel. It simply means that God is calling upon all Israel to heed his commands that as a nation they will prosper when the nation chooses to obey the Lord Prov. 22:4 - So EVERYONE who is poor is in that condition because they are not honoring God? Is that how you are applying this verse? If so, you need to learn how to interpret Scripture, because your hermeneutics are horrible. A proverb is a general truth. It is not a promise. You are treating the proverb as a dogmatic promise made to every person. This is proverb is not guaranteeing that every believer will be wealthy and live to be 100 just because they fear the Lord. It is a general truth that is upheld by the fact that some who honor God to come into wealth and long life. Generally those who live in fear of the Lord live better lives, but not all of the time. Again i did not make mention of everyone who is poor is not honoring God - again i refer you to my previous posts which talk of alot of things that contribute towards poverty. Further when you say that my hermeneutics are horrible is this not bordering on you getting personal i am sure as a worthy watchman more is expected of you. I thought we debate the topic not the person. Further when you say brother that ,A proverb is a general truth. - what is a general truth compared to a promise...is it not the same thing as i did when i took my vows to honour and cherish my wife from this day on is that not a general truth and a promise? And when you say that - "Generally those who live in fear of the Lord live better lives, but not all of the time" do you mean that Christians that follow the bible and fear the Lord will not live good lives....that is interesting i imagined if i abided in Him He would abide in me and long life , happiness would follow me for all my days Edited September 29, 2006 by Nevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 29, 2006 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Again i did not make mention of everyone who is poor is not honoring God Here is what you said: That is why i say that those that are poor have made a choice. You said in the connection to a proverb that states that the fear of the Lord is rewarded by wealth. Since you connected "choice" with that proverb, it is only natural that I would draw the conclusion that you are connecting poverty with those who are not "fearing/honoring God." You made the connection, and I simply worked from what you provided. If that is not what you intended to convey, then perhaps you need to examine what you write more carefully before posting. Calling your hermeneutics horrible is not a personal attack, but it is true if you are going to start judging people's spirituality by their poverty level as it appeared you were doing with Prov. 22:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted September 29, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted September 29, 2006 Touchy touchy I agree pointer real poverty is something we must address. The question is exactly how? I don't believe it is beyond the wit of wealthy Americans to find a way. It may be beyond their will, though. But poverty in the developing nations is about food distribution, bad politics, displacement through civil war, war itself and on and on. Very little poverty is actually caused by people not able to feed themselves; it is usually human made crises. You could send all of the money of every rich man in the US to Sudan right now, who would get it? Not the people who need it, the Sudan government would pocket that money and use it to continue to oppress those people. I do think one thing we could do right here and you mentioned Mexico is all work together to stop human slavery and trafficking of our Mexican brothers and sisters. We could do more, but don't be fooled into thinking that money itself will solve the problems of hunger and poverty in the developing nations. We need efforts to promote justice and peace and long term engagement with these countries and their people. There are no easy solutions. We have spent billions and billions in Africa, and much of it was simply wasted or has lined the pockets of the corrupt leaders or went into war making. But anyway we could all give more, not just the very wealthy it is a calling for all of us rich and working class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 29, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 29, 2006 Why did Paul take a collection? To meet fellow believer's needs Fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted September 30, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,798 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2006 Around the globe it is a different story. Indeed. Across the border into Mexico is as far as one needs to go. But remember those that we consider to have very little in the US would be rich men in a good portion of Africa. I don't mean that at all. I mean real poverty. There are places in the US that have real poverty. Places where people are live on less than $2,000 a year, no running water, no electricity. Where they suffer as much as any 3rd world nation. Yet the costs of food etc is no differnt than what it is in the rest of the US. They suffer. Despite working hard for their livings, they suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted September 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2006 Sometimes people are "poor" because they cannnot manage their money. Sometimes they are poor because they have no money, and that through no fault of their own. This state of affairs is the constant concern of the Old and New Testaments. I disagree with you Pointer people are poor becasue of the choice they are making. If the bible is clearly understood and read in it's entireity you will find that God gives us the tools to make money.....come on the simple principal of give and it shall be given unto ...needs to be followed . Read my previous notes - God has given us the ability to make money - it is our tool as believers - those people that are poor are that way and there are biblical explainations for their poverty ....its could be sins of the father, not a generous spirit, mismanagement of what God has given , excessive lifestyles, habits that are not conforming with Gods words, not tithing, illegal practises / choices i could go on!! Ahh, I knew the name-it-claim-it doctrine was going to come out at some point. "There's a biblical explaination" why people are poor. Or "they're poor because of their choices" (i.e. they "lack faith"), is essentially what you're saying...which is verifiably false. Tell that to the believers who suffer for their faith daily in countries where they are oppressed, persecuted and have to worship in secret. Tell that to my friends who put their whole families in danger in order to share the gospel in a country where they are spied on and tracked. They live in small houses and have very few belongings. Sometimes they have to leave all of their things behind in order to escape being caught by their government. Do you want to tell my friend Whitney (who is 6 years old) that her family is poor because they lack faith? Or explain what your "biblical explaination" is for her lack of 'wealth"? Are you suggesting she'd be better off here, where she can wear designer clothes and have expensive birthday parties? I'd like to see you explain that to her. As it stands, her family is happy and very close knit. Though their emails are monitored and they can't communicate very much to us (or very often), when we hear from them there is never a single complaint about their financial situation. They celebrated her 6th birthday with just the 4 of them in a house that is more the equivalent of a basement in the homes we have here. One of their meetings had been raided just a few days before and a few of their friends arrested. But you know what? They celebrated her birthday, and her mom made her a princess cake. This should bring conviction to us all, honestly. How dare we sit in the comfort of our homes, enjoying every luxury we can have, and complain that we don't have enough or that we "deserve" more? We are not worthy to even compare ourselves in the same breath to these families who have forsaken every worldly possession to pursue spreading God's name, even when it means risk and sacrifice. You see, I think you may have missed a large part of the gospel message, my friend. The point is, it's not about us or our comfort and pleasure. It's all for His glory. If that means suffering, it means suffering. If that means sacrifice, it means sacrifice. If it means trials, it means trials. Oh and by the way...it does mean all of those things. Taking up your cross and crucifying your flesh doesn't mean standing up and declaring what you deserve. It means standing up and declaring what He deserves...which is our unwavering devotion and ultimate worship. Any time spent "teaching" believers about what they are "entitled" to (i.e financial prosperity) is not only a waste of our time, it's robbing God of the focus and He is the only one who is deserving of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2006 Sometimes people are "poor" because they cannnot manage their money. Sometimes they are poor because they have no money, and that through no fault of their own. This state of affairs is the constant concern of the Old and New Testaments. I disagree with you Pointer people are poor becasue of the choice they are making. If the bible is clearly understood and read in it's entireity you will find that God gives us the tools to make money. Let us see your exegesis, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted September 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2006 Well, I think it should be clarified that some people are poor because of their choices. It would be foolish to generalize. Are there lazy people out there? Absolutely. And there are plenty of scriptures (specifically in Proverbs) that warn against laziness and being idle. Are there people who mishandle their finances? Absolutely. And there are plenty of scriptures which discuss being good stewards of what God gives us. But the emphasis of this topic appears to be more towards monitary wealth and it's supposed link towards faith/obedience to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2006 Well, I think it should be clarified that some people are poor because of their choices. There are a lot of people in the world, very willing to work, apparently, who don't think they get any choice. What is more, they lay the blame for that at the feet of rich Christian Americans who, they say, exploit them. So it ill behoves rich, American Christians to blame the poor for their own poverty without very convincing evidence. And imv they certainly won't find justification for their accusation in Scripture. But if some brave person wants to show me wrong, here's their chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naziyr Posted September 30, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 113 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/15/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/30/1984 Share Posted September 30, 2006 In the NT church, we see that those who came to te knowledge of Christ sold their land and possessions and gave to a "community fund" in which all were able to prosper according to equal distribution of funds according to needs. Even the companions of Jesus gave their money to one man (judas) to hold and possess for the benifit of the group. We also see that the companions of Jesus, and Jesus himself didn't have the money to pay the tax demanded of them, so Jesus directed the disciple to go take a fish and look in it's mouth for the payment of taxes. I don't agree with Pastors having Large amounts of money, for: 1.) Money Corrupts 2.) There are those in the church who could use that money to pay their light bill, or buy food for their hungry family, instead of the pastor putting a down payment on a new luxary boat. 3.) There's no mention in the scriptures of a "wealthy pastor" or "elder" or anything like that as far as I know. When I see guys like benny hinn, and Joel Osteen making a "bigger" "better" building... it worries me. Lakewood Church spent over $80 Million Dollars to renovate and redecorate the Place their are leasing from the city (it's a sports arena). Now look at that number... 80 MILLION DOLLARS just to redecorate! What OTHER churches in the area could have used this? How many people could have been financially blessed from equal distribution of these funds? How many charities, youth help programs could have benefited from only a taste of that? But no... a bigger better church has to be built. After all, the Protestants have to keep up with the Catholics right? Poor poor small churches. Crushed under the weight of Temples to Mammon. Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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