Bill Posted November 7, 2003 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 532 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/03/2001 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/25/1972 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Nice. I think I'll take the high road here and say I forgive you for calling me a liar. You don't know me, and my use of "you" in that general sense, referring to the religion rather than an individual, obviously painted something in your mind that I was asking you that question directly. My integrity has NEVER been questioned, because I strive to keep it at a high level. Regardless of how highly offended, angered, and hurt I am with your attitude and choice of words, I'll forgive you anyhow. That'd be the better thing to do rather than escalate a war of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted November 7, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2003 So enlighten us. Is the Pope fallable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagz4Christ Posted November 7, 2003 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 511 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1975 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Why would He say examine yourself? Is he a raving lunatic? After you declare yourself saved the Holy Spirit permeates your being and you can do no wrong, why on earth would He say otherwise? He knows this to be truth, doesn't He? Douay from one extreme to another. I don't post regularly due to the fact that I am perhaps one of the least liked persons on this topic. I do however need to clarify a few things based on this post of yours. Ok. First, we are talking about salvation. It is your thought, Douay, that we cannot know we are saved until we get to the judgement seat of Christ. Just about everyone else thinks otherwise, though there are a few that think you can lose your salvation. For our purpose, I will focus on your argument. You said that Paul said he wasn't saved. I disagree. Paul called himself a servant of Christ, or a bondservant of Christ in just about every opening of his letters. How can you be a servant of someone to whom you don't belong? He calls himself an apostle set apart for the gospel of God, though I suppose you seem to think that you can be an apostle and not be saved? Just read the first verse of Romans. While we are in that Book, let us continue then, and see that Paul claims salvation for himself. 5 Through him[Christ] and for his[Christ's] name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. hmmm. Interesting. Paul, and his team received grace. What does the Bible say about grace? Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Interesting again! So Paul says he is the recipient of grace....hmmm.....grace is what saved him. He just said it is what saves US TOO! Indeed, Paul did teach that he was saved. You know someone else that taught that? John. Turn with me to 1 John chapter 5. 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 'nuff said. Paul teaches that we need to examine ourselves, and test ourselves. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymous Posted November 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,550 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/15/1943 Share Posted November 8, 2003 You sir, are a liar, I never said that. Douay Douay's favorite response on most of his posts to questions/replies seem to be the word: LIAR! Seems to me if one wants to maintain respect and to be taken seriously, a proper dialect would work better! Blessings ~ AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted November 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2003 Sagz ~ I love ya Brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagz4Christ Posted November 8, 2003 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 511 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1975 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Sagz ~ I love ya Brother! Love you back sister!!!!!!!!!! :il: :t: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 I am the one who answered before and still answer A. We are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. B is contradictory to what the Bible says, you are not supposed to proclaim yourself saved, that is up to the judgement of God when you stand before Him, Paul made that clear enough. He said that he was not saved. You must endure to the end. The Bible says that we can know right now that we are saved. First of all, Jesus said John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Here, we see that Jesus said that who ever believes upon him, has (present tense) eternal life. 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. According to John, it is possible to know, right now, that we have eternal life today. We do NOT have to wait until after we die. This is the assurance of the believer. To deny this, is to call God a liar, and is tantamount to heresy These are just two Scriptures that defeat the notion that we cannot be sure of our salvation. There are more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted November 8, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2003 Shiloh: I agree. Yes, there are more verses like these, but the Catholics here don't want to concern themselves with the Bible. They'd prefer to, as you say, call Christ a liar and think that their popes who are constantly making up new laws and abandoning old ones are the truthsayers. It's mind-boggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 It is also important to understand that salvation occurs in three stages; Justification, santification, and glorification. When we ask Jesus into our heart, we immediately recieve eternal life. At that time we also recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit which Paul refers to as the "earnest" (fortaste) of our inheritance (Eph. 1:14). After we recieve the gift of eternal life, God begins the process of sanctification, which is the removal of old habits and sins ( This is also called the circumscision of the heart). This is an ongoing, lifelong process. Everyday we are to confess our sins to God, ask His forgiveness, stay in fellowship with Him, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us as we seek to live in the Will of God. The Scripture admonishes us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). The greek word for "work out" means to demonstrate. Our lives should be an outworking of our salvation. If we cannot be sure that we are saved today, we cannot effectively live for God. We cannot demonstrate a salvation that we are not sure we have. If salvation were not a gift we have today, then Paul's statement would make no sense. Finally, the third stage, the one we are all waiting for, is glorification. This is talked about in 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thess. 4. This is when we shall recieve our glorified, eternal bodies and shall live forever with Christ. This is salvation in the future tense. It is the Holy Spirit with Whom we are sealed that is a reminder that we are in Christ and are destined for that great and glorious day. Those who do not know if they are saved, are probably not. A Christian is not somone who just goes to church. As the father of Corrie Ten Boom once said, "Just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar, it doesn't necessarily make him a cookie." A Christian is one who KNOWS he/she is saved. They know this because the Holy Spirit witnesses this to them in their heart. They know they are saved because they believe the Bible when it says that they can know they possess eternal life. Anyone on this board who cannot say for sure, that if they were to die tonight, that they would go home to be with Jesus, needs to get right with Christ this very second!! You need to make Jesus the Lord and Saviour of your life. When you stand before God after your death, this is all that will matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagz4Christ Posted November 9, 2003 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 511 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/18/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1975 Share Posted November 9, 2003 When we ask Jesus into our heart, we immediately recieve eternal life. At that time we also recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit which Paul refers to as the "earnest" (fortaste) of our inheritance (Eph. 1:14). In the same chapter, Paul also talks about another important aspect of the work of the Spirit of God in our lives. It is His sealing work. I gave a talk about it in Contoversial Issues under the topic "SAved by Faith and Works" if you want to check it out. Let me give you the Scripture reference though..... Ephesians 1 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Boy...that really brings out assurance and security of you ask me! Loved what you said shiloh!! ~your servant in Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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