Christ's Free Servant Posted October 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 Hello Sue, I think that other thread is your best bet. This is a very contentious subject, especially when it comes to those who believe in Calvanism. I have been through heated debates over this topic several times, and if you want to see a Christian lose their sanctification in a hurry, take a stand against someone who stands for the doctrine of Calvin. Butero, Thanks! That is why I generally stay away from doctrinal debates. And, it is why I specified that what I wanted was scripture, not arguing of points. I want to examine the Word before God and let Him give me understanding. He wrote the book, afterall, so he's my best bet for getting an accurate interpretation. Someone actually did send me a list of scriptures on the 5 points from the opposing view, so I think I'm good. I would appreciate it if we could keep this to scripture and not personal views - thanks so much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted October 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted October 2, 2006 It was the early reformed church that decided this. I am just reporting on it today The system of doctrine known as Arminianism is heresy. It is an offshoot from Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. It has been adversely affecting the church and its doctrine for over 250 years. Men like Finney and Wesley, being the charismatic personalities they were, propagated the doctrine and resurrected the Pelagian error from the pit of hell once again to persecute the church of Christ. Today's Arminians are not necessarily the same caliber as those of old. Historic Arminianism is altogether heretical. http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/Arminianism.htm The article goes on to say that each possibly heretical church/doctrine must be examined... but they are all fruit of the poisoned tree. So why am I supposed to accept this as fact, just because the early reformed church decided it? I would simply respond that they are wrong. I have my own copy of scripture, have read it for myself, and disagree with the conclusions of those you are quoting. early reformers also said the pope was the beast of revelation, but this doesn't obligate me to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted October 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted October 2, 2006 Truster, Thank you for your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sue, In terms of the disagreement between Calvinist and Arminian theologians regarding the interaction between God's sovereignty and human freedom, an excellent book is Predestination and Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom It it 4 believing scholars from all points on the spectrum discuss the issues: John Feinberg defends the "God ordains all things" position. Norman Geisler defends the "God knows all things" position. Bruce Reichenbach defends the "God limits His power" position. Clark Pinoock defends the "God limits His knowledge" position. There are four chapters. In each chapter one schalar presents his view, then the others interact with it. It is available for around 11.00 on Amazon. The editors are David and Randall Basinger and it is published by IVP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2006 For a concise discussion of TULIP see: The Five Points of Calvinism by Edwin H Palmer published by Baker books. It is also availabe for around 11.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2006 By the way DAISY stands for D iminshed Depravity A brogated Election I mpersonal Atonement S endentary Grace Y ieldable Justification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sue, In terms of the disagreement between Calvinist and Arminian theologians regarding the interaction between God's sovereignty and human freedom, an excellent book is Predestination and Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom It it 4 believing scholars from all points on the spectrum discuss the issues: John Feinberg defends the "God ordains all things" position. Norman Geisler defends the "God knows all things" position. Bruce Reichenbach defends the "God limits His power" position. Clark Pinoock defends the "God limits His knowledge" position. There are four chapters. In each chapter one schalar presents his view, then the others interact with it. It is available for around 11.00 on Amazon. The editors are David and Randall Basinger and it is published by IVP EricH, Thanks so much! A friend of mine just recommended the book by Norman Geisler, but I do prefer to see the topic from all points of view and from a Biblical perspective, too. That sounds like a really good resource. I appreciate it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted October 3, 2006 By the way DAISY stands for D iminshed Depravity A brogated Election I mpersonal Atonement S endentary Grace Y ieldable Justification I think I am probably half way between a TULIP and a DAISY, but I won't know for sure until I have had a chance to examine the various doctrines more closely. Thanks so much for your input!! Seeking Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted October 3, 2006 There are very few that would likely be 100 percent either way. I lean heavily towards Tulip, but would not claim to agree entirely. I don't know why there is this need to base one's beliefs on any of the reformers. What is wrong with simply being Bible believing? Listen to what the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:12,13 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I have never understood this need to be associated with Calvin, Wesley, Luther or anyone else. I could not agree with you more!! In fact, as I prayed about whether or not we should join this church, that is one of the passages the Lord gave me. He also gave me Psalm 146:1-8 in which it says "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save... Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God..." And, then Psalm 147:1-11 where it says: "His pleasure is not in the strength of the horse, nor his delight in the legs of man; the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love." Well, I may not understand all the TULIP and DAISY stuff, but my trust is in God, he is my help, he is my hope, I fear him and I put my hope in his unfailing love. That is really what is important, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 3, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2006 By the way DAISY stands for D iminshed Depravity A brogated Election I mpersonal Atonement S endentary Grace Y ieldable Justification I think I am probably half way between a TULIP and a DAISY, but I won't know for sure until I have had a chance to examine the various doctrines more closely. Thanks so much for your input!! Seeking Sue There are very few that would likely be 100 percent either way. I lean heavily towards Tulip, but would not claim to agree entirely. I don't know why there is this need to base one's beliefs on any of the reformers. What is wrong with simply being Bible believing? Listen to what the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:12,13 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I have never understood this need to be associated with Calvin, Wesley, Luther or anyone else. There is probably no need to be identified with the individuals. What is probably more necessary is to understand what you believe in terms of the questions their theologies raise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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