Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

"To be on a quest is nothing more or less than to become an asker of questions."

If this person is truly seeking, he would not be angered by a single answer to his questions.

Okay. Give it a shot.

But if you plan to tell a formerly devout believer that he never really believed, or didn't really understand, and are going to tell him that things that are true aren't, then I don't suppose you are answering his questions.

k

Whenever someone believes that truth is purely subjective, then there's really no point in attmpting to dispel his concepts with objective truth. Pilate was such a man - evidenced by his response to Jesus, "What is truth?"

Yeah, that'll help.

k

[LightofJesus]

k

God has not vanished and He is so calling your name it is almost unreal!! All of us here I know are praying for you, at least I know I am for sure. You cross my heart daily and I know that is only the Lord reminding me to pray for you. You have not strayed far enough that He cannot reach you and He is calling you back khalou He loves us all in spite of our intellect that we think we have over Him or the things we seem to believe in. I have been having a real hard time of it myself this week, grief that has not been dealt with but I cannot and will not let go of the only thing that is solid in my life right now and that is my Lord. He does not ever leave us He cannot according to His promises. That in itself gives me a peace that I cannot explain. You try too hard at your running and I see it very clearly in your intellect. You have let your brain talk too much and pushed God out. Stop and I know you will hear him again khalou!! The word says that the very elect will be decieved and that is all you have done is allowed yourself to be decieved by the lies of the father of lies. I really do not understand why the Lord has put you so heavily on my heart but He has and I continue to pray for you everyday!!!

You are giving me a blueprint of what happened to me in your own life.

That peace of which you speak is nice, isn't it? Even in light of your situation, you have His peace that passes all understanding. It seems like a gift, but it is not.

Your unresolved grief need never be resolved because of the peace you've been granted. I don't know the circumstances of your grief, but mine was profound and lasted for years and years. Continual punishment at an emotional level that no person with which I was dealing had ever seen before, and they were professionals in the realm in which I was dealing. Yet I was at peace.

That was because of my absolute faith in the Lord.

Guess what? I succeeded. I went through it where others couldn't. I lasted because of my faith in God, and the peace He provided. Everyone told me, especially Christians, that I didn't have to endure this. It was superhuman. But I had faith in God, and he granted me peace. Every personal attack at my heart, every insult to my person, every emotional slash, all were left at the Cross, and peace was granted.

But I discovered something. None of it was left at the cross. It was all in a cage that I'd built myself through the sheer will of my faith. It was inside of me- rotting my ability to experience any sort of human joy. I'd become a machine. Those weak Christians had been right. I had no business believing in any of it to that extent. The Bible is written for those who can't really live up to it's expectations, because there is forgiveness for those who can't, but nothing for those who actually take it seriously but emotional impairment at a clinical level.

That wasn't the reason God disappeared, but it was the start of my questions. Had I belonged to any other faith on the planet, it couldn't have happened. No other faith tells us that we are incapable of being too faithful, so we aren't supposed to worry about it.

Think about it. All the time I've been here all I've heard about my fall from grace is that I didn't really measure up! That I lost faith, or that I didn't believe enough, or I became angry at God. It is almost laughable! The absolute, exact opposite is more the truth.

k

k

You have not fallen from grace if you had you would not be breathing. God's grace is sufficient, which is something through what I've been through recently, the death of my husband, I have learned more of and am still experienceing I almost destroyed my life by wrong decisions and God stopped me in my tracks. I was being decieved so badly and I was blind to it. If it were not for my friends praying diligently I would not be writing this. I do trust the Lord for everything I just wish I were as faithful as He is, I will not reach perfection until I am home with Him but I strive for that perfection which is preparing me for going home!!

[LightofJesus]

k

God has not vanished and He is so calling your name it is almost unreal!! All of us here I know are praying for you, at least I know I am for sure. You cross my heart daily and I know that is only the Lord reminding me to pray for you. You have not strayed far enough that He cannot reach you and He is calling you back khalou He loves us all in spite of our intellect that we think we have over Him or the things we seem to believe in. I have been having a real hard time of it myself this week, grief that has not been dealt with but I cannot and will not let go of the only thing that is solid in my life right now and that is my Lord. He does not ever leave us He cannot according to His promises. That in itself gives me a peace that I cannot explain. You try too hard at your running and I see it very clearly in your intellect. You have let your brain talk too much and pushed God out. Stop and I know you will hear him again khalou!! The word says that the very elect will be decieved and that is all you have done is allowed yourself to be decieved by the lies of the father of lies. I really do not understand why the Lord has put you so heavily on my heart but He has and I continue to pray for you everyday!!!

You are giving me a blueprint of what happened to me in your own life.

That peace of which you speak is nice, isn't it? Even in light of your situation, you have His peace that passes all understanding. It seems like a gift, but it is not.

Your unresolved grief need never be resolved because of the peace you've been granted. I don't know the circumstances of your grief, but mine was profound and lasted for years and years. Continual punishment at an emotional level that no person with which I was dealing had ever seen before, and they were professionals in the realm in which I was dealing. Yet I was at peace.

That was because of my absolute faith in the Lord.

Guess what? I succeeded. I went through it where others couldn't. I lasted because of my faith in God, and the peace He provided. Everyone told me, especially Christians, that I didn't have to endure this. It was superhuman. But I had faith in God, and he granted me peace. Every personal attack at my heart, every insult to my person, every emotional slash, all were left at the Cross, and peace was granted.

But I discovered something. None of it was left at the cross. It was all in a cage that I'd built myself through the sheer will of my faith. It was inside of me- rotting my ability to experience any sort of human joy. I'd become a machine. Those weak Christians had been right. I had no business believing in any of it to that extent. The Bible is written for those who can't really live up to it's expectations, because there is forgiveness for those who can't, but nothing for those who actually take it seriously but emotional impairment at a clinical level.

That wasn't the reason God disappeared, but it was the start of my questions. Had I belonged to any other faith on the planet, it couldn't have happened. No other faith tells us that we are incapable of being too faithful, so we aren't supposed to worry about it.

Think about it. All the time I've been here all I've heard about my fall from grace is that I didn't really measure up! That I lost faith, or that I didn't believe enough, or I became angry at God. It is almost laughable! The absolute, exact opposite is more the truth.

k

k

You have not fallen from grace if you had you would not be breathing. God's grace is sufficient, which is something through what I've been through recently, the death of my husband, I have learned more of and am still experienceing I almost destroyed my life by wrong decisions and God stopped me in my tracks. I was being decieved so badly and I was blind to it. If it were not for my friends praying diligently I would not be writing this. I do trust the Lord for everything I just wish I were as faithful as He is, I will not reach perfection until I am home with Him but I strive for that perfection which is preparing me for going home!!

k

I would like to add also it is His grace that sustains us not our faith. Our faith is in what God can and will do for us according to His word. We still have to deal with our problems and seek answers to deal with things not just bury them. Yes take them to the cross and ask the Lord to show you how to deal with the emotons that linger. We are human not robots. God still allows us to have emotions and responses to our lives. We are feeling beings and emotional beings. He knows that too. It sounds like you took it to the cross but at some point you took it all back and boy that had to be a monster of emotions that fell on you. I hand everything over to the Lord daily and guess what there is always something hanging around. Like I said I am not perfect and never will be until I go home, and I am so looking forward to seeing the face of the ONE who saved me!!!

[anti-hillbilly]

khalou, have you been talking to my husband? Yes he would be extremely angry if anyone tried to tell him he didn't know the bible or that he must not have really been saved. That seems to be the "pat" responses when people find out his "dirty little secret". He knows the Bible better than anyone I've known except for one or two ministers. He used to scold me for being so "laid back" about it. Now he's the atheist.

[Floatingaxe]

You know, khalou, after all you have said here about you having known the Lord for 40 years, I just don't believe it. I have know Jesus Christ for 44 years, and I have had a growing relationship, not without trials, but all with Him and His sustaining. When you are truly His, you grow up in Him. When you allow doubt, and bitterness and anger to fester, you tend to become limp and ineffective and even dry up spiritually. You walk in disobedience, and God takes His hand off you.

Why have you not grown? Is it because you have allowed doubt to steal the truth you had? Have you allowed bitterness to poison your sweetness with Jesus? Or did you merely have a mental assent to Christ, mistakenly believing you were a believer?

Anyone who says they were a Christian but aren't now---was never a truly committed believer. They have NEVER tasted of the sweetness of the Lord, for they would NEVER have abandoned Him. Once you know Jesus personally, you cannot deny Him.

It wasn't doubt that led me to believe that Christianity isn't healthy. It was absolute faith in it. Absolute faith in Christianity is not good for human beings mentally, spiritually, or emotionally. The only way it doesn't negatively effect a person is if they have a wishy-washy faith that allows them to be "reasonable" about it and pick and choose what they will take seriously.

I haven't seen any evidence on this board that Faith in Christ isn't what each of you have decided it is according to your own sensibilities. I predict you will all be Christians for the rest of your lives as a result. After all, Christianity is easy when it's on your own terms.

I couldn't just halfway live that life- not if I truly believed it was the truth. Anything less than 100% commitment might as well be called Christianity Lite.

k

100% submission is what it's about. We die to self daily, taking up our Cross and following Jesus! He deserves it all! We are desperate without Him. In so doing, we also have wonderful freedom! Freedom from the pull of sin.

These terms are not ours---they are His! Laying down our own wills, we take up the cause of Christ. What an honour and a blessing. I have eternal life with Him as His promise to me.

[Floatingaxe]

khalou, have you been talking to my husband? Yes he would be extremely angry if anyone tried to tell him he didn't know the bible or that he must not have really been saved. That seems to be the "pat" responses when people find out his "dirty little secret". He knows the Bible better than anyone I've known except for one or two ministers. He used to scold me for being so "laid back" about it. Now he's the atheist.

My heart goes out to you, anti-hillbilly. What a burden you must be bearing, not understanding what has happened in your husband.

Remember, though, that even the devil knows scripture. We need to really be praying for your husband's salvation, regardless of his past beliefs--- he is denying Christ, lost. I will pray about him.

[Matthitjah]

Khalou,

Who is Jesus Christ?

You see, I keep asking because this is central to Christianity.

You say He has vanished. However the tenants of the Faith are bound up in Him and not you.

It's about focus and where you have placed your Faith. So what if God doesn't supply all the answers you seem to feel haven't been answered.

If a Truck hit you today would His Broken Body and Poured out Blood be enough?

I keep asking the question because it is an important one and central to all the other issues.

I have a friend whose testimony is that he asked the Lord to reveal Himself to him. He was an atheist, almost destroyed anothers Faith. Yet when he awoke in an utter blackness devoid and deep all alone. It was then that he understood who the Lord was and that all the questions didn't really seem to matter that much. An exstence without God was an absolute nightmare.

Ever say Goodbye to a hero? Ever have to lay away your dreams? Ever been on the Road to Emmaus?

I haven't said you do not have enough Faith. My own personal Faith is very slim at times. That's not the point at all. It only takes a sliver of Faith and that is nothing to boast about, it comes forth from God. Otherwise you wouldn't even have that much. My quotes were that you refuse to mix your Faith with the Word of God.

It's the original lie. "Has God really said"?

Who is Jesus Christ, Khalou?

Peace,

Dave

[anti-hillbilly]

khalou, have you been talking to my husband? Yes he would be extremely angry if anyone tried to tell him he didn't know the bible or that he must not have really been saved. That seems to be the "pat" responses when people find out his "dirty little secret". He knows the Bible better than anyone I've known except for one or two ministers. He used to scold me for being so "laid back" about it. Now he's the atheist.

My heart goes out to you, anti-hillbilly. What a burden you must be bearing, not understanding what has happened in your husband.

Remember, though, that even the devil knows scripture. We need to really be praying for your husband's salvation, regardless of his past beliefs--- he is denying Christ, lost. I will pray about him.

Thanks FA, I don't think my husband is "the devil" but I understand what you were trying to say I think. In that vein I have to say that personally I think a lot of "devils" are running the Christian heirchy these days; a lot of them on t.v. and radio and they love to pound a bible with their fist and quote scripture. They say it's all innerrant; not to add to or take away; then do exactly that, twisting the scriptures to suit their own political purposes while convincing the crowd that it's what God wants; becoming multi-millionnaires in the process. -- This is just one of the reasons I don't want my 14 yr old getting ambushed by an evangelical youth pastor at school, behind my back. [i'd brought this up in another thread] and I don't want him getting sucked into one of those dispensationalist churches which seem to be growing in numbers and might.

Maybe this whole thing is God's way of pulling my husband "out of that". Time will tell, but I have hope and I'm praying every day.

[anti-hillbilly]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

We won't know that till I see what the questions are. So far, all I have seen is a question over how the Biblical cannon came about. There is nothing hard to answer in that. The books already existed. All this group did was to seek to find out which ones were accepted by the church as authoritative, and put them together in one book. It is hard for me to believe that this would cause anyone to lose their faith. It is also surprising that there is anyone that has been in church for any length of time that didn't already know this.

I doubt there is anything he could ask that I couldn't answer, or someone here at Worthy couldn't answer. That doesn't mean he would accept what we say, but that is another matter entirely. Atheists continually give answers to how we came to be, but I as a Christian, don't accept their answers either.

That was just one "problem" Butero. You'd be surprised at how many people don't know where the Bible came from. Most people have no idea that it was basically the Catholics who made that determination. None of my husband's family, down south, knew because I remember him asking them.

Perhaps instead of asking him to talk here I could just post some questions that I remember him asking. Maybe I'll throw in a couple of comments and questions my 14 yr old has too.

Do you know about the foreskin one?

Here's a biggie from Hubby: Why does the Creator of the Universe need innocent human blood? God's ways are suppose to be different than man's ways but human sacrifice was something that barbaric people did in a lot of tribes and cultures.

Don't know if I can spend all day on here agian today [i'm getting so far behind but when I get on here it becomes addictive]. Should we start a new thread of just stay on this one?

I edited this to correct a spelling error; no content changed.

Edited October 21, 2006 by anti-hillbilly

[anti-hillbilly]

Just saw this....I remember hubby talking about this one: Since they are willing to believe in evolution, based on unproven ideas, ones even Darwin recanted before his death, why should someone have to have answers to every question an atheist throws at them to believe in God?

My husband had heard that on a Christian radio station and got very excited, but when he checked it out he found out that it isn't true, it's a lie and was exposed as a lie shortly after that story got circulated. He was disgusted about that and said that Christians aren't suppose to be "pumping out" lies like that. He said Darwin did not recant on his deathbed and that his daughter said so because she was there with him when he died. He said these "preachers" either know that and are lying deliberately, or they are repeating the lie without knowing it is a lie.