Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Massorite]

ttuna,

John 3:16 says "Eternal life"..................not "temporary life" based on what we do. It is what "Christ" did for us!

Eternal life is permanent, but it is permanent for every soul that every lived. However, eternal life with Christ is a whole different matter.

In John 3:16 is the word "believe" or "believed". the correct understanding is the meaning of to believe, but OSAS makes the meaning believed. Therein lies the misunderstanding. Check your Greek on this word and you will then know.

Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only those that are Christ's have eternal life.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Only the elect have eternal life.

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again only they that believe have eternal life.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If you don't know the father then you don't have life.

1Jo 3:14

[Massorite]

ttuna,

John 3:16 says "Eternal life"..................not "temporary life" based on what we do. It is what "Christ" did for us!

Eternal life is permanent, but it is permanent for every soul that every lived. However, eternal life with Christ is a whole different matter.

In John 3:16 is the word "believe" or "believed". the correct understanding is the meaning of to believe, but OSAS makes the meaning believed. Therein lies the misunderstanding. Check your Greek on this word and you will then know.

Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only those that are Christ's have eternal life.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Only the elect have eternal life.

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again only they that believe have eternal life.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If you don't know the father then you don't have life.

1Jo 3:14

[Thaddaeus]

Massorite,

Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God. [/qoute]

Great assertion, but can you prove it? you will need to refute the following texts with some added commentary:

The Revelation we have in the OT is God's message and the preparation of the coming of the Messiah. God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

Christ came to us Incarnate. Meaning He was both God and Man. It means that the joining of God's perfect Image was to be reunited with the fallen image of man and creation. Thus in summation, man lost the perfect created image in which he was made and lost the ability to commune with God so that man could attain Godlikeness. He lost life.

The Incarnation of our human nature was a necessity in order that Christ could redeem it. Christ became man, consubstantial with man, in order to effect the changes necessary to redeem our natures. Adam's sin resulted in a judgement against man's nature, death. Man became mortal, living in a state of death. Thus all men are born dead, by nature, inherited corruptness. It is from this state of death, mortality, the flesh that sin originates in man.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life

Yes, and in the Greek this is a present tense, active verb. In other words, yesterday is meaningless. It does not matter what you may have, might have or that you did believe in the past. It is what you believe today, and each and every day of your life until the end, once you do believe. There is no past tense in this meaning.

Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life.

yes, that is what it says, but I do not know of a single protestant denomination that actually believes and actually does this.

Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life.

yes, believe, but if you don't believe, are you still a believer? Is believing synonomous with unbeliever, or loss of faith, or unfaithfulness?

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only those that are Christ's have eternal life.

Notice the "all flesh" but other than that, those that believe will have eternal life WITH HIM. Big difference.

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers.

Yes, no question that the end or the ultimage goal is what Christ had in mind. But what you overlook is that Christ first needed to give mankind life, in order to even have ONE believer. Read I Cor 15:14-19 very carefully.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Only the elect have eternal life.

WITH HIM.

Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers.

but the context is again spiritual life. Life with Christ. This is not referencing physical life, immortality.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

WITH HIM. What you are misisng in all of these texts is that all human beings will have eternal life. They all were given eternal life, SO THAT EACH HUMAN BEING COULD FULFILL THEIR CREATED MANDATE. Which was originally to work with God, freely in this universe. It is what we fell from. Christ overcame the fall, so that God and man could again work together in this universe. We enter that labor by faith. We remain there through our faith. God desires that all men be saved through the knowledge of Him and believe on His Name. But in order to give man that opportunity, all men needed to be redeemed from the fall.

It can be easily stated that most OSAS proponents overlook the Work of Christ on the Cross. They make Christ's work mans work therein lies this great contradiction they think they see in that a beleiver cannot do any work. You are totally misunderstanding the whole purpose of man's creation, the fall, the redemption from that fall and the restoration of man to be a free agent to love and obey God, work with Him as he was created to do.

1Jo 3:14 Those that do not love DO NOT HAVE LIFE but ABIDE IN DEATH.

The whole context is all spiritual. It is spiritual life and spiritual death. It is not referencing physical life or death.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those that are cast into the lake of fire have DEATH, not life.

Again spiritual. By virture of the fact that this verse speaks of those who do not believe will partake of the second death, MEANS THAT THEY WERE GIVEN LIFE THROUGH CHRIST'S WORK ON THE CROSS. If they did not have life, physical life, immortality, there would be no one to through into hell.

Heaven and hell only exist BECAUSE CHRIST REDEEMED THE WORLD. If He did not redeem the world, did not rise on the third day, then no dead will rise either. We all would still be under the condemnation of Adam, which is physcial death. The annihilation of human beings. Dust to dust, Gen 3:19.

I might ask you a question, just how do you explain in your theology that the dead shall be raised in the last day to stand in judgement? Your view is solely predicated on a spiritual renewal and no place in the Bible is physical life granted through faith.

You did a great job of proof-texting, listing and quoting texts. They say what they say, but you gave no understanding of them in relation to both immediate context and the context of revelation.

Edited August 12, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[Guest Greg Davies]

OK, I'm back and I see you all have been busy batting this ball around. I'm just going to give you a simple expression of what I believe. You can take it or not and then I'll leave ya'll alone. I believe that if you were convicted of sin by the H.S. and received Jesus as your Saviour with all the believing and confessing prescribed in Rom 10:9 ( all that imlpies repentence, OK?), then you are saved. Titus 3:5 describes the process. That which is born of Spirit is spirit. It is an incorruptible seed. Now we have been saved by grace through faith. We have just begun a process of becoming just like Jesus if we will follow on to know Him. Through water baptism, receiving the gift of the H.S. (Acts 2:38), picking up our cross daily, mortifying the flesh, etc., we work out our salvation, we are co-laborers with God, we put off the old man, put on the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness, and we put on the mind of Christ ( this is all the soul realm, the spirit is seperate, right?) Now all this soul stuff is called building a habitation for God as decribed in I Cor 3. It's called good works, things done based on faith toward God. These things abide the fire and we receive rewards. Other stuff, dead works, deeds of the flesh, etc., commonly known as sins won't abide the fire and we suffer loss. Verse 15 tells us though that we are still saved.

So what we lose or is damaged by unrepentant sin isn't that new spirit, the incorruptible seed, but our relationship, the soul realm reality, that we have or haven't developed with the Lord. The relationship we develop with the Lord after we've been saved has eternal consequences, good or bad. We have a choice to be comformed to His image and become like Him or not. If not, there will be eternal regret, I believe, weeping and nashing of teeth if you will, outer darkness for some. We will all be judjed for our works, saved or not, right? That's motivation enough for me to stop sinning and live a sanctified life the best I can. I could go on and on and I'm sure you will. But I'm moving on, Happy trails, Greg. Oh, one more thing, the Kingdom of God is about relationship. All the stuff you talk about losing your salvation about is true as it relates to the Kingdom, not the new spirit. Enough, Bye

Edited August 13, 2007 by Greg Davies

[Guest Greg Davies]

OK, I'm back and I see you all have been busy batting this ball around. I'm just going to give you a simple expression of what I believe. You can take it or not and then I'll leave ya'll alone. I believe that if you were convicted of sin by the H.S. and received Jesus as your Saviour with all the believing and confessing prescribed in Rom 10:9 ( all that imlpies repentence for arguements sake), then you are saved. Titus 3:5 describes the process. That which is born of Spirit is spirit. It is an incorruptible seed. Now we have been saved by grace through faith. We have just begun a process of becoming just like Jesus if we will follow on to know Him. Through water baptism, receiving the gift of the H.S. (Acts 2:38), picking up our cross daily, mortifying the flesh, etc., we work out our salvation, we are co-laborers with God, we put off the old man, put on the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness, and we put on the mind of Christ ( this is all the soul realm, the spirit is seperate, right?) Now all this soul stuff is called building a habitation for God as decribed in I Cor 3. It's called good works, things done based on faith toward God. These things abide the fire and we receive rewards. Other stuff, dead works, deeds of the flesh, etc., commonly known as sins won't abide the fire and we suffer loss. Verse 15 tells us though that we are still saved.

So what we lose or is damaged by unrepentant sin isn't that new spirit, the incorruptible seed, but our relationship, the soul realm reality, that we have or haven't developed with the Lord. The relationship we develop with the Lord after we've been saved has eternal consequences, good or bad. We have a choice to be comformed to His image and become like Him or not. If not, there will be eternal regret, I believe, weeping and nashing of teeth if you will, outer darkness for some. We will all be judged for our works, saved or not, right? That's motivation enough for me to stop sinning and live a sanctified life the best I can. I could go on and on and I'm sure you will. But I'm moving on, Happy trails, Greg. Oh, one more thing, the Kingdom of God is about relationship. All the stuff you talk about losing your salvation about is true as it relates to the Kingdom, not the new spirit. Enough, Bye and God bless.

[larryt]

Massorite,

Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God. [/qoute]

Great assertion, but can you prove it? you will need to refute the following texts with some added commentary:

The Revelation we have in the OT is God's message and the preparation of the coming of the Messiah. God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

Christ came to us Incarnate. Meaning He was both God and Man. It means that the joining of God's perfect Image was to be reunited with the fallen image of man and creation. Thus in summation, man lost the perfect created image in which he was made and lost the ability to commune with God so that man could attain Godlikeness. He lost life.

The Incarnation of our human nature was a necessity in order that Christ could redeem it. Christ became man, consubstantial with man, in order to effect the changes necessary to redeem our natures. Adam's sin resulted in a judgement against man's nature, death. Man became mortal, living in a state of death. Thus all men are born dead, by nature, inherited corruptness. It is from this state of death, mortality, the flesh that sin originates in man.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life

Yes, and in the Greek this is a present tense, active verb. In other words, yesterday is meaningless. It does not matter what you may have, might have or that you did believe in the past. It is what you believe today, and each and every day of your life until the end, once you do believe. There is no past tense in this meaning.

Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life.

yes, that is what it says, but I do not know of a single protestant denomination that actually believes and actually does this.

Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life.

yes, believe, but if you don't believe, are you still a believer? Is believing synonomous with unbeliever, or loss of faith, or unfaithfulness?

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only those that are Christ's have eternal life.

Notice the "all flesh" but other than that, those that believe will have eternal life WITH HIM. Big difference.

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers.

Yes, no question that the end or the ultimage goal is what Christ had in mind. But what you overlook is that Christ first needed to give mankind life, in order to even have ONE believer. Read I Cor 15:14-19 very carefully.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Only the elect have eternal life.

WITH HIM.

Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers.

but the context is again spiritual life. Life with Christ. This is not referencing physical life, immortality.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

WITH HIM. What you are misisng in all of these texts is that all human beings will have eternal life. They all were given eternal life, SO THAT EACH HUMAN BEING COULD FULFILL THEIR CREATED MANDATE. Which was originally to work with God, freely in this universe. It is what we fell from. Christ overcame the fall, so that God and man could again work together in this universe. We enter that labor by faith. We remain there through our faith. God desires that all men be saved through the knowledge of Him and believe on His Name. But in order to give man that opportunity, all men needed to be redeemed from the fall.

It can be easily stated that most OSAS proponents overlook the Work of Christ on the Cross. They make Christ's work mans work therein lies this great contradiction they think they see in that a beleiver cannot do any work. You are totally misunderstanding the whole purpose of man's creation, the fall, the redemption from that fall and the restoration of man to be a free agent to love and obey God, work with Him as he was created to do.

1Jo 3:14 Those that do not love DO NOT HAVE LIFE but ABIDE IN DEATH.

The whole context is all spiritual. It is spiritual life and spiritual death. It is not referencing physical life or death.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those that are cast into the lake of fire have DEATH, not life.

Again spiritual. By virture of the fact that this verse speaks of those who do not believe will partake of the second death, MEANS THAT THEY WERE GIVEN LIFE THROUGH CHRIST'S WORK ON THE CROSS. If they did not have life, physical life, immortality, there would be no one to through into hell.

Heaven and hell only exist BECAUSE CHRIST REDEEMED THE WORLD. If He did not redeem the world, did not rise on the third day, then no dead will rise either. We all would still be under the condemnation of Adam, which is physcial death. The annihilation of human beings. Dust to dust, Gen 3:19.

I might ask you a question, just how do you explain in your theology that the dead shall be raised in the last day to stand in judgement? Your view is solely predicated on a spiritual renewal and no place in the Bible is physical life granted through faith.

You did a great job of proof-texting, listing and quoting texts. They say what they say, but you gave no understanding of them in relation to both immediate context and the context of revelation.

Life whether physical or spiritual is in Jesus Christ. If you are not in Christ you don't have life.(period) Those that are cast into hell will have an eternal existance but they do not have life for they are not in Christ. Man was created in the first place to eternally exist. Death does not mean the ceasing of existance. Death is a separation. Physical death is a separation of the body.(rich man & Lazarus) Spiritual death is separation from God. The day Adam sinned he was separated from God. He later was separated from his body in physical death. He did not cease to exist.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how 1John 3:9 fits in your theology.

LT

ps try using the spell checker.

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

Life whether physical or spiritual is in Jesus Christ. If you are not in Christ you don't have life.(period)

No, there is a big difference in the preposition one uses. All of creation is through Christ. Col 1:15-20. All things have been created by Him, and all things were reconciled through Him. That means, man was given life, immortality through Christ. The work of Chrsit on the Cross, the Incarnation was for the sole purpose of reconstructing man so that man could once again live (spiritually) IN Christ. We do not have physical life IN Christ - only spiritual. We have our existance, or redemption, our reconciliation THROUGH Christ. Follow the contexts and the prepositions.

Those that are cast into hell will have an eternal existance but they do not have life for they are not in Christ

That is a contradiction of terms.

A human being cannot be cast into hell as dust. We need life, we need existance. That is what Christ did on the Cross as His primary work, to overcome death. That is a physical death, then He also provided the means for spiritual life as well, the atonement.

Man was created in the first place to eternally exist.

this is very true. Adam was created in a neutral state. He was neither immortal nor mortal. He was able to attain either one. We know what happened. He sinned and the condemnation of that one sin was death. Physical death, mortality which man bears in His nature and we inherit that mortality through that nature, we are born mortal.

Death does not mean the ceasing of existance. Death is a separation. Physical death is a separation of the body.(rich man & Lazarus)

this is also a contradiction of terms. It is very correct to say that death is separation (separation of body and soul) A human being is whole, is considered a human being ONLY when united. Paul then adds the fact that being IN Christ produces a full man. If we are separated, we cease to exist as human beings. That is precisely what happened in the sentence of death of man. Gen 3:19, dust to dust. How can dust stand in judgment and how can dust have eternal life, immortality?

the story of Lazarus and the rich man is precisely showing both as existing in body and soul, but separated from each other, or one separated from God. It depicts a spiritual separaton ONLY.

Spiritual death is separation from God.

Agreed. It is also the only death that matters to man in this life.

The day Adam sinned he was separated from God. He later was separated from his body in physical death. He did not cease to exist.

The one sin did separate him spiritually from God. But the sentence upon that one sin was death. Adam died physically in that very moment. He became mortal. Life as we know it is a journey of survival. We can die even before birth. We inherited that mortal state. We did not inherit Adam's sin or the spiritual separation that sin causes. We do that on our own living in our fallen natures.

That he later died bioligically only confirms that He became mortal in the day that he sinned. At the exit from the Garden, God spelled out that judgement. This is in the same context as Gen 3:19. We know he died, became mortal because he passed that condition to his two sons. One died at the hand of his brother who was able to sin in his fallen condition, causing his brother to die mortally. this happened long before Adam actually expired.

You are right he never ceased to exist because at the exit also, God gave him a promise, Gen 3:15. We understand it as the promise of the Messiah to correct the judgement that God just gave to Adam. There would be a second Adam to undo what Adam did to mankind. Thus from that point on, man was already immortal. God had communion with man in time, in history because God knew that Christ would come to redeem man, to give man life again, for an eternity. Christ's actual coming confirmed to man the promise. We live in the knowledge of that first coming, but we live in the Hope of the Second Coming when it will be fully consumated. We all shall rise again, we all will stand in judgement before Christ. All, no exceptons. None were lost to death.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how 1John 3:9 fits in your theology.

I have answered you a long time ago. Go back to page 157, post #1566.

[larryt]

Larryt,

I John 3:9. This verse must be understood and aligned with I John 1:6-9.

The words of I John 3:9 "does not sin" or "cannot sin" must be understood in the Greek because there it is expressed in the words that have much more meaning. A believer cannot knowingly sin, cannot practice sin. If one does so, they are in darkness and the Truth is not in Him. Man has the ability to move from one to the other. That is why we must strive, must work, must endure. We must strive against the devil who is striving mightyly to enter your life. He seeks whom he can devour. Christians are his main focus. Why work on someone you already have in your fold? That is why OSAS is such a false teachings. We, as believers do sin. And when we permit sin to dwell, to become a practice we are no longer in the Light, we are no longer IN Christ. Sin separates man from God.

Your reasoning is the "wisdom of man" and not the Word of God. What you said to me is:

This verse does not fit my theology and therefore must mean something else.

Back up your statement with scripture.

The statement by John that "we cannot sin" has to do with the new birth/new creation in Christ Jesus. Check the context of chapter 3. We shall be like Him. You show me that you do not understand the new birth, being born again from above, bing a NEW CREATURE/CREATION in Christ.

LT

Thad,

So how is it that John can say we CANNOT SIN according to your understanding? In your explanation you totally avoid the question.

LT

[Eddie B]

God who cannot lie has promised eternal live. How do you loose eternal life?

[Massorite]

Massorite,

Where did you ever get this Idea?????? That everyone that ever lived has eternal life is absolutely contrary to the Word of God. [/qoute]

Great assertion, but can you prove it? you will need to refute the following texts with some added commentary:

The Revelation we have in the OT is God's message and the preparation of the coming of the Messiah. God sent His Only Son, Christ, to reconcile the world unto himself, II Cor 5:14-19. Because Christ is the eternal image of the Father, He alone is able to renew the image of God in man. Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

Christ came to us Incarnate. Meaning He was both God and Man. It means that the joining of God's perfect Image was to be reunited with the fallen image of man and creation. Thus in summation, man lost the perfect created image in which he was made and lost the ability to commune with God so that man could attain Godlikeness. He lost life.

The Incarnation of our human nature was a necessity in order that Christ could redeem it. Christ became man, consubstantial with man, in order to effect the changes necessary to redeem our natures. Adam's sin resulted in a judgement against man's nature, death. Man became mortal, living in a state of death. Thus all men are born dead, by nature, inherited corruptness. It is from this state of death, mortality, the flesh that sin originates in man.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life

Yes, and in the Greek this is a present tense, active verb. In other words, yesterday is meaningless. It does not matter what you may have, might have or that you did believe in the past. It is what you believe today, and each and every day of your life until the end, once you do believe. There is no past tense in this meaning.

Only those that partake of Christ have eternal life.

yes, that is what it says, but I do not know of a single protestant denomination that actually believes and actually does this.

Again only those that believe, who are the sheep and not goats have eternal life.

yes, believe, but if you don't believe, are you still a believer? Is believing synonomous with unbeliever, or loss of faith, or unfaithfulness?

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Only those that are Christ's have eternal life.

Notice the "all flesh" but other than that, those that believe will have eternal life WITH HIM. Big difference.

1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

Only believers have eternal life. John is talking to believers not unbelievers.

Yes, no question that the end or the ultimage goal is what Christ had in mind. But what you overlook is that Christ first needed to give mankind life, in order to even have ONE believer. Read I Cor 15:14-19 very carefully.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Only the elect have eternal life.

WITH HIM.

Those that believe not shall NOT see life. Only believers.

but the context is again spiritual life. Life with Christ. This is not referencing physical life, immortality.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Only those that BELIEVE have eternal/everlasting life.

WITH HIM. What you are misisng in all of these texts is that all human beings will have eternal life. They all were given eternal life, SO THAT EACH HUMAN BEING COULD FULFILL THEIR CREATED MANDATE. Which was originally to work with God, freely in this universe. It is what we fell from. Christ overcame the fall, so that God and man could again work together in this universe. We enter that labor by faith. We remain there through our faith. God desires that all men be saved through the knowledge of Him and believe on His Name. But in order to give man that opportunity, all men needed to be redeemed from the fall.

It can be easily stated that most OSAS proponents overlook the Work of Christ on the Cross. They make Christ's work mans work therein lies this great contradiction they think they see in that a beleiver cannot do any work. You are totally misunderstanding the whole purpose of man's creation, the fall, the redemption from that fall and the restoration of man to be a free agent to love and obey God, work with Him as he was created to do.

1Jo 3:14 Those that do not love DO NOT HAVE LIFE but ABIDE IN DEATH.

The whole context is all spiritual. It is spiritual life and spiritual death. It is not referencing physical life or death.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Those that are cast into the lake of fire have DEATH, not life.

Again spiritual. By virture of the fact that this verse speaks of those who do not believe will partake of the second death, MEANS THAT THEY WERE GIVEN LIFE THROUGH CHRIST'S WORK ON THE CROSS. If they did not have life, physical life, immortality, there would be no one to through into hell.

Heaven and hell only exist BECAUSE CHRIST REDEEMED THE WORLD. If He did not redeem the world, did not rise on the third day, then no dead will rise either. We all would still be under the condemnation of Adam, which is physcial death. The annihilation of human beings. Dust to dust, Gen 3:19.

I might ask you a question, just how do you explain in your theology that the dead shall be raised in the last day to stand in judgement? Your view is solely predicated on a spiritual renewal and no place in the Bible is physical life granted through faith.

You did a great job of proof-texting, listing and quoting texts. They say what they say, but you gave no understanding of them in relation to both immediate context and the context of revelation.

I never said that I was talking about the same eternal life that Jesus gives us. I was talking about a life eternal in judgment, darkness, torment, a place where those who rejected Jesus would burn forever, seperation from God, as well as a life eternal with Jesus. We know from the bible that the rich man after he died was/is in a place of burning because he stated that he was thirsty and in torments. So what is going to happen to him? We know from the book of Revelation that hell is cast into the lake of fire (the rich man will be among them who are in hell) where he will continue to burn and there is nothing in the bible that says that God ever puts out or quenches the lake of fire.

Read 2 Peter chapter 2. You will find that those who fit the discription of ch.2 will suffer darkness "for ever" which also means "an eternity"

So tell me. Would you consider the suffering of eternal darkness a life thatis suffering in eternal darkness? If you don't consider it a life what do you think it is when one suffers for ever/eternally? I guess I should have made myself more clear.

Be BLessed.