Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

Greg,

If the wages of sin is death then death could not enter until Adam sinned. (Rom 5:14-21) So by definition he was created to not die, immortal.

He was created to not die, but had the choice to do one of two things, become mortal or immortal. We know what happened.

It is unimagineable to me the fear and oppression someone must feel if they believe you can lose your salvation by sinning considering anything that is not of faith is sin. Deep down inside you have to be constantly wondering of you are saved now. What a cruel concept. The enemy of our souls must love this doctrine. How can you have the joy of the Lord and believe that. I know you have convinced yourselves and I grieve for you.

That is because you completely misunderstand the whole plan of salvation. You have no understanding of what man was created to do and be outside of the fall.

I have no fear on not being saved. I know from day to day, just as it should be. However, those that have adopted this theory of "once saved always saved" actually have no understanding of the requirements of that salvation. They also have no assurance whatsoever, because at some point they might become one of those, of whom proponents say, well, he was never saved anyway. What kind of assurance is that when you could become, one that was never saved in the first place.

You can be sure the enemy just loves this doctrine. He has been able to deceive you in thinking that sin does not separate one from God. That all one needs to do is believe as he does, but not act on that belief. It is the exact same deception he gave to Eve and how many years ago is that?

It must be comforting to be able to develop your own belief system and then feel that you are safe. It is a very pychological lift to accept your own understanding. It has been the mark of all false teachings throughout history.

[larryt]

larryt,

The body is dust and will return to dust if the spirit and soul is separated from it. You equate life, existence and immortality, I do not. They are not the same. They are three different concepts.

Possibly in your interpretation, but this has never been the interpretation of the Church from the beginning.

Adam may have been created with dust, but he was created to be eternal. That is both body and soul as a human being united with God in communion.

Man fell, death was the result. That death is and means the separation of body and soul which was not meant for man. If NOT FOR CHRIST coming, redeeming mankind, man would have ceased to exist. Death is nothingness.

Christ did not give mankind immortality in this life because He, in His wisdom, allowed man to die physically once, to kill or rid man of the fallen flesh. When we are raised we will not be raised with a fallen nature, but incorruptible and immortal.

That you have separate defintions for the very same thing is what is causing all the confusion and contradiction in your theology and understanding.

Your theology does not line up. Why would the Lord Jesus Christ warn us that some WILL perish?

Context, context, context. Is He speaking of mankind or believers. Same as with life, eternal life.

And why does Paul tell us that the cross is foolishness to them that PERISH?

Same, context, context, context. Paul is speaking post-Christ, post resurrection, it can ONLY be hell that is in question, not annihilation of destruction of the human being.

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

If you don't repent you perish.

Again, context. He is speaking of believing. ONLY heaven if believing and hell if unbelieving.

all the following are in the same context. Same with the word salvation. It is used in two different contexts in the Bible.

You really do need to check your theology with the Word of God and not your traditions of men. Those icons in the Greek Orthodox church are lying to you.

The theology of the Apostles is correct. It has been correct since the beginning and has not changed in 2000 years. I think that has mostly to do with the work of the Holy Spirit preserving that Truth. It is amazing that the Truth has not changed in 2000 years. But when one uses Sola Scriptura, and individuals (the theology of men, uninspired men) think they have the authority to change the meaning of the Gospel, it is constantly changing. For over 400 years the method has yielded no universal understanding. It is constantly in flux and has become more privatized, individualized and thus humanized ever since.

Thad,

You cannot have it both ways. First you say:

No man will perish.

Then you agree with me that some WILL IN FACT PERISH.

You make statement like

this has never been the interpretation of the Church from the beginning.

yet you don't site ANYTHING to back up what you say.

I agree that the Word of God NEVER changes and has been the same since the beginning, Genesis. I don't look to individuals but only to scripture. I haven't quoted outside commentaries. Only the Word. You don't even do that. And you appeal to the "Church" the Greek Othordox Church to support your contentions.

LT

[Massorite]

Guys, I am feeling so bad right now. I would have made a new thread about this, but I think it relates. Anyways, I do love God and I believe Jesus Christ is the one and only true savior. When I was maybe 14 or 15 years old I asked Jesus to become my savior. Then I walked away from God and I became a bitter person. Then I came back to God....then I became side tracked again. At one point all sort of horrible thoughts were going through my head. Thoughts that were doubting God, thoughts that were making God out to be a not so good God...

Through all this I always repented my sins. I feel bad because even though I asked the Lord to be my saviour, I did not act on it the way I should have. I still prayed everyday. Last night I was watching a video on Youtube about a man who said he spent 23 minutes in hell. After watching it I feel traumatized. I have a horrible fear of burning in hell. I have no appetite, I can't sleep, and I am so confused. I'm trying my best to start over again. Last night something told me that I needed to get up and speak to my family after seeing that clip. I went and told my mother and sister how we need to accept Jesus Christ as our savior and trust in him always. When I think of God's love I tear up. Because it is so great. Yet everytime I think a great thought about God, another thought enters my mind and counters it with an evil thought. I've been pondering my salvation all day, and I feel miserable. I don't know what to do. I plan on going to a revival tonight. For some reason I feel I have lost my salvation at the young age at 17. Then again another part of me says I still have a chance. I have never wanted to worship God with my heart so badly. I want to just praise him in front of everyone. Another weakness of mine was sharing myself and getting around people in public, but now I don't care now. I want to get into Heaven no matter what it takes. I just don't know what to do. How do I know for sure I am saved, and how do I stay that way. I feel like I may have run out of chances. But I'm not sure.

Great falls,

Jesus is our Lord and savior, and always leads by example, when He told His disciples to do something it was not beyond Himself to do the same:

John 14:4-6: 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 13:4-5: 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

luke 17:3-4: 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

If Jesus told His disciples to forgive when trespassed against, if the transgresser asked forgiveness, and He leads by example. then He will do the same.

There is also the parable concerning the prodical son you can read this in : Luke 15:11-24:

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Note the words alive again in Red

also you can read a more detailed discription of Luke 17 if you read all of Luke 18.

Just repent ( feel sorry turn away from your sin), go to church read your bible daily, worship the Lord, and pray to Him daily.

and get rid of unchristian influences in your life. Let us know what happens.

I'll be praying for ya

Your brother in Christ

Spiritman

Brother. I am ready to tell you something now. I went into the Church tonight with doubts filled in my head. When they began singing the devil put thoughts in my head such as "This is ridiculous", "Why don't you just walk out now?", "God is not good", and all sorts of awful thoughts. satan had never attacked me so strongly. I was feeling so lost and hopeless. Suddenly I saw a lady at the altar, she was kneeled down, and the pastors of the Church were praying with her to, and her soul was won to God. Let me tell you that all my life I have been such a shy person, but God gave me the courage to walk in front of the Church, and I kneeled down, there was prayer and shouting, I was crying uncontrollably and shaking, but I did not care who saw me. I even got up in front of the Church and testified. Something I would never have been able to do without truly knowing that God was my savior. He gave me strength. I sat in that Church maybe a few hours afterwards, and I felt so secure, and peaceful. I was hugging or shaking hands everyone near me. I had never been so full of joy. I feel like telling the world what God has done for me. I feel like praying for random people walking along the street. As soon as I walked out of that Church, satan was once again attacking harder than ever. Both in my mind and physically. I don't have much of an appetite and I am having some bad physical pain/nausea in my stomach area. I need your prayers. Pray that I will be able to defeat satan with God's power, and that I will have peace in my mind. Pray. Thanks.

Hi Great falls,

The fact that the devil is after you, and trying so hard means that your still a child of God. Satan usually doesn't bother people who are already His. Satan even tried this with Jesus Himself, in the desert when He (Jesus) was tempeted for 40 days and 40 nights. Remember Jesus is the model of how to respond; lets look at this scripture to see what Jesus did.

Matthew 4:1-11: 1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

How did Jesus respond to satan in Matthew 4-1-11; He quoted the scriptures back to satan, what was satans response, Satan kept trying for a while to get Jesus to fall, but Jesus just kept quoting scriputure to Him. The devil just got fed up and left.

James 4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

continue to resist if satan tries to fill your head with ungodly thoughts quote the scripture to him, say to him it is written, it might be a little painful at first, but it's like lifting weights work throught the pain and then there is gain. trust me on this I've had battles that have taken months, I just kept quoting scriptures. One thing to remember is that satan will come back and attempt to tempt you again. that's the nature of the spiritual battle. it will continue till we go home to be with the Lord.

you are in my prayers, and keep on being prayed up in church let them anoint you with oil and be prayed for as much as possible.

God Bless

Spiritman

Hay Great Falls. These people who claim to have spent time in hell or talk to the dead have the spirits of demons inside of them and are the tools of satan. So with that in mind we should consider what satan is. He is a thief, he bring destruction to those living in this world without Jesus inside of them and most of all he is the one who tells lies. Which means that these people who make these claims are making lies to deceive those who would be deceived.

Don't be afraid. If Jesus is within you, you have no fear of burning in hell. All you have to do is continue down the path you are traveling.

We Fall Down We Get Up.

Be Blessed

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

You cannot have it both ways. First you say:

QUOTE

No man will perish.

Then you agree with me that some WILL IN FACT PERISH.

Yes, but they are two different meanings because they apply to two different aspects of salvation, just as the word salvation is used. Christ is the Savior of the world. He saved mankind from the effects of the fall, but this does not mean that Christ saved every soul. Two very different aspects which you have conflated from the beginning. It is no wonder that you would be confused.

yet you don't site ANYTHING to back up what you say.

I have used innumerable texts of which not a single one has been refuted as yet. You disagree with what I explained but you have given no texts that unequivically refute what I stated.

This is all based on the Incarnation of Christ. Christ assuming our human nature by birth from the Virgin Mary. Dying and rising the third day. It is the meaning of the Incarnation, which was also spelled out at the Council of Chalcedon 481. This whole meaning was also written very clearly by Athanasius in his book, "On the Incarnation".

I agree that the Word of God NEVER changes and has been the same since the beginning, Genesis. I don't look to individuals but only to scripture. I haven't quoted outside commentaries. Only the Word. You don't even do that. And you appeal to the "Church" the Greek Othordox Church to support your contentions.

You may use scripture, but so do the false teachers. All false teaching can claim scriptural basis. It is man's interpretation of that scripture that causes all the multitude of understandings. You may not look to individuals, but you look to yourself first. That makes it all individual, has no universality about it. You surely have not shown it as the Gospel from the beginning.

I see you really don't know much about Orthodox either. The Greeks are only one Communion of 15. We are all Orthodox, we have always been in communion from the beginning. We have always shared faith and practice. I happen to belong to the Antiochian Communion.

[Thaddaeus]

Cardcaptor,

Another great post. All I can say is, Amen, Amen, Amen.

[larryt]

Without a discussion of the basis of salvation, the reason for it and how great a salvation, those that believe they can loose their salvation cannot understand how you cannot loose that which they have no power to gain in the first place.

So I ask this Question.

How depraved/impotent is man in regard to spiritual things?

I believe man is totally depraved. He cannot take any step toward God. It is as though you were to go to a grave yard and tell a corpse to try reach out and you would help him our of the grave.

Jesus said: You must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

In order to see the kingdom one must first be born again. The natural man cannot see the kingdom of God. He must be born again first.

LT

[Guest Greg Davies]

So if we are"once saved, always saved" what about "the fight" that Paul? was writing when he wrote i have fought the fight, and why would the devil keep trying if we were "always saved" I believe that there is always grace just waiting for us and i believe that there are death sins that if we commit them we will need to repent to the Lord for Him to impart that saving grace that will get us to heavens door

Good questions. I believe the fight Paul was talking about was the "working out" he describes in Phil 2:12. We are a triune being: body soul, and spirit. When we receive Jesus as our Saviour, we are born of the Spirit (Titus 3:5 and I Cor 12:13) and receive a new spirit (John 3:6 and Ez 36:26). This salvation is "worked out" through the soul and eventually will be manifest in the body, i.e. full salvation.

Those who believe that you can lose your salvation seem unwilling or whatever to recognize this triune reality. It is as if salvation is all one package to be lost or retained. The new spirit is eternally secure. The "working out" which is the developing of our relationship with God is conditional on our walking in the newness of life. All the "losses" so to speak are on this soul level and effect our eternal relationship with the Lord.

Why does the devil fight us? Because he doesn't want the kingdoms of this world, which he controls, to become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ (Rev 11:15) The Kingdom of God is so much more than just receiving Christ as your Saviour. It is the same difference as having a new spirit and being conformed to the image of Christ. To go from one to the other is called "working out your salvation". God Bless, Greg.

[exrockstar]

So if we are"once saved, always saved" what about "the fight" that Paul? was writing when he wrote i have fought the fight, and why would the devil keep trying if we were "always saved" I believe that there is always grace just waiting for us and i believe that there are death sins that if we commit them we will need to repent to the Lord for Him to impart that saving grace that will get us to heavens door

1. isnt Paul talking about the race?

2. the devil has no permission to do anything to you. ALL problems are your own. God does not allow the

devil to attack you unless he is given permission. There are influwnces but not one is lifting your hand to commit sin.

some people need to be accountable for their actions and stop blaming the devil.

[exrockstar]

So if we are"once saved, always saved" what about "the fight" that Paul? was writing when he wrote i have fought the fight, and why would the devil keep trying if we were "always saved" I believe that there is always grace just waiting for us and i believe that there are death sins that if we commit them we will need to repent to the Lord for Him to impart that saving grace that will get us to heavens door

Good questions. I believe the fight Paul was talking about was the "working out" he describes in Phil 2:12. We are a triune being: body soul, and spirit. When we receive Jesus as our Saviour, we are born of the Spirit (Titus 3:5 and I Cor 12:13) and receive a new spirit (John 3:6 and Ez 36:26). This salvation is "worked out" through the soul and eventually will be manifest in the body, i.e. full salvation.

Those who believe that you can lose your salvation seem unwilling or whatever to recognize this triune reality. It is as if salvation is all one package to be lost or retained. The new spirit is eternally secure. The "working out" which is the developing of our relationship with God is conditional on our walking in the newness of life. All the "losses" so to speak are on this soul level and effect our eternal relationship with the Lord.

Why does the devil fight us? Because he doesn't want the kingdoms of this world, which he controls, to become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ (Rev 11:15) The Kingdom of God is so much more than just receiving Christ as your Saviour. It is the same difference as having a new spirit and being conformed to the image of Christ. To go from one to the other is called "working out your salvation". God Bless, Greg.

Actually I don't even know what you are talking about.

When we are "born again" we do receive a new spirit. Our salvation is worked out when we put away the filth of the flesh by repenting of our sins and renewing our minds and hearts not to lust after them anymore so that we don't give into the temptation of them.

It is not that we are not unwilling or whatever to recognize anything. We would rather believe and understand all of the scriptures and apply them.

When we read that sin will keep us out of heaven we believe it and try to justify it.

its actually same spirit but "regenerated" Titus 3:5

and repenting of sins is called "fellowship."

if your going to explain things then at least provide scripture because you will be corrected.

[Rhonda Lou]

Without a discussion of the basis of salvation, the reason for it and how great a salvation, those that believe they can loose their salvation cannot understand how you cannot loose that which they have no power to gain in the first place.

So I ask this Question.

How depraved/impotent is man in regard to spiritual things?

I believe man is totally depraved. He cannot take any step toward God. It is as though you were to go to a grave yard and tell a corpse to try reach out and you would help him our of the grave.

Jesus said: You must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

In order to see the kingdom one must first be born again. The natural man cannot see the kingdom of God. He must be born again first.

LT

How can people say that those who don't believe in OSAS don't understand when those who do believe in OSAS completely ignore or justify away this scripture -

Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

According tho these scriptures God could kill any one of us for committing any of these sins AFTER we have become Christians.

I believe that OSAS, and I justify the above verses by continuing to read. The very next verses say,

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now ye are light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth. (Verses 8-9)

The NLT puts these verses thes way: "For thosugh your hearts were once full of darkness, now you are full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it! For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true." Both versions are saying the same thing: the "light" in us, or the "fruit" is of the Spirit -- He is transforming us. By doing those sins mentioned above, we are showing that we do not have the Spirit of Christ in us. Romans 8:9 says,

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. NOW IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS."

I take this to mean that if the Holy Spirit is in you, you are a Christian, and that Holy Spirit living in you will transform you. 2 Corinthians 3:18 SAYS,

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

To me, a Christian is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that Holy Spirit does the transforming work "from glory to glory." It is not my doing. By confessing Jesus as Lord, I was promising to submit to the transformation of the Holy Spirit. If I didn't do that, then I do not have the Holy Spirit in me, and I'm not saved -- no matter HOW good or bad I am. If the Holy Spirit IS in me, than any good thing I do is HIM doing it through me. (By the all caps there, I mean to give Him the credit -- not be "shouting".) I just do not believe God is given enough credit for the good things we do.

I understand the fear that we will go out and sin like crazy because we take Jesus' sacrifice for granted, as an insurance plan to get into heaven. Paul was afraid it would be taken that way, and that is why he wrote in Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

So, eternal security should never be used as an excuse to sin. However, Paul is equally adamant on the fact that we should not live in fear of losing our eternal security by breaking the law. That is why he says the following in Galatians 3:2-3:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect in the flesh?"

We can't keep the law in the flesh. We can't do anything in the flesh. We can only do this through the Spirit, and only if the Spirit of God dwells in us.

Later in your post, you quoted Philippians 2:12 where it says to work out our own salvation. This is in connection with salctification salvation, but note that the very next verse says, "For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure." This means that we should work out our salvation "for" or "because" as Christians, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, it is GOD who gives us the will (desire to obey) and the "do" (power to obey). Without Him doing that through us, it would not happen. And with Him doing that in us, we will never need to be concerned with salvation because we trust Him to keep those of us He's saved by living through us.

For those who do not have the Spirit of God in them, they are not saved regardless of good or bad works. So the ultimate question becomes, "Do you have the Holy Spirit living in you?" Can you show me anywhere after the Spirit began indwelling believers where the Bible ever indicates the Holy Spirit leaves those believers? All I find is that He changes them.