Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[BurnForChrist]

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

This is an interesting verse I found in my studies today. The person that "spake on the earth" was Moses. "Him that speaketh from heaven" is Christ. This goes hand in hand with this verse -

Hebrews 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Many people answer this question that the OP asked by saying how can God give us salvation just to take it away. If you look carefully at these two verses you can see that it was the Christian who walked away from God. On top of that we can see that there is great punishment that will happen to that Christian.

I disagree,

Yes we see professing believers back then, and now leaving who have claimed to "de-convert" or now walk away from the faith, PROVING what scripture says about them, that they were NEVER truly saved. The term for it is Apostasy or Apostates. Let me give you an example of where I am coming from.

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

First we need to know the context of this passage, John is writing to believers who were being attacked by false teachers belonging to a group called "Gnosticism" which is a cult that still exist today. The whole letter is basically a test to show us what a saved believer's life style looks like, and what a lost so called professing believer lives. We read in the text above, "for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us" meaning if they were TRULY saved, they would have preserved because he who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

And again the LORD says in John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

and, John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Those who were "given to him" by the Father is the sheep, those who were chosen, taken out of the world, that belong to Christ, our great Shepard.

Now looking at Hebrews, again we need to look at the context and background information of the new testament letter. The writer of Hebrews (whoever it is) wrote to a group of Jewish believers that were backsliding and turning away from the faith, so see scriptures like Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." The writer is talking about if we continue to live in a life style of sin, keep willing fully sin, we never were TRULY saved, as John said: 1 John 2:3 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." Now we obviously know that the believer isnt sinless, or perfect (1 John 1:8, 10), but he CANNOT, for indeed it is IMPOSSIBLE (against his nature), for the believer to keep living a life style of sin and disobedience (1 John 3:9; Matthew 7:15-20)

[Thaddaeus]

BurnForChrist,

Yes we see professing believers back then, and now leaving who have claimed to "de-convert" or now walk away from the faith, PROVING what scripture says about them, that they were NEVER truly saved. The term for it is Apostasy or Apostates. Let me give you an example of where I am coming from.

Scripture never says they were never saved. These are your interpretative words. It says that they departed, proving that they are not of us. They made their fall manifest. Apostasy can be used, but apostasy is impossible unless you have held, believed in a position from which you changed. An unbeliever cannot EVER be an apostate. Apostate from what? ONLY a believer can become an apostate, meaning he has become an unbeliever, he is no longer a believer. One cannot be in both states at the same time. So, obviously verbs must convey that action of change.

The whole letter is basically a test to show us what a saved believer's life style looks like, and what a lost so called professing believer lives.

that is a contradiction in terms. A believer is a believer, bonefied in every way. When he falls, leaves, is not faithful any longer, he must be called an unbeliever. He is not a "lost so-called professing believer". He is a believer who became lost, thus an unbeliever.

and, John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Those who were "given to him" by the Father is the sheep, those who were chosen, taken out of the world, that belong to Christ, our great Shepard.

That is not quite correct as that would make your view universal. Christ did save all of mankind, (the sheep) Not a human being was lost. But in order to have those become HIS sheep a clear distinction that John 10:11. then John 6:40 says that those that believe of those of verse 39 will have everlasting life (with Him). If Christ did not save mankind from death, from the judgment of Adam, there can be NO SHEEP TO BE CALLED HIS SHEEP.

The writer is talking about if we continue to live in a life style of sin, keep willing fully sin, we never were TRULY saved, as John said: 1 John 2:3 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."

No, it does not say that at all. Again, it never says they were NEVER saved. You are contradicting the phrase, of Heb 10:26 as well as the whole paragraph of Heb 6:4. These are people who repented, were baptised, shared the Eucharist. It is the very defintion of the NT believer. They have entered into a covenantal relationship with Christ. If we were saved, but now no longer keep His commandments, then we are also no longer saved.

Now we obviously know that the believer isnt sinless, or perfect (1 John 1:8, 10), but he CANNOT, for indeed it is IMPOSSIBLE (against his nature), for the believer to keep living a life style of sin and disobedience (1 John 3:9; Matthew 7:15-20)

Verse 10 gives you the test by which this is manifest. The problem with your view is that we do sin, and any sin can grow, can fester, can take root. When it does it manifests itself. If we do it willingly, we are no l onger being faithful, thus we are no longer in Christ. Since we cannot be saved outside of Christ nor through unfaithfulness, we have lost salvation. It is impossible to sin willingly IF, a very big IF, we remain in Christ.

[BurnForChrist]

Thaddaeus,

Scripture never says they were never saved. These are your interpretative words. It says that they departed, proving that they are not of us. They made their fall manifest. Apostasy can be used, but apostasy is impossible unless you have held, believed in a position from which you changed. An unbeliever cannot EVER be an apostate. Apostate from what? ONLY a believer can become an apostate, meaning he has become an unbeliever, he is no longer a believer. One cannot be in both states at the same time. So, obviously verbs must convey that action of change.

Thanks for your reply. Your definition of apostasy is unbiblical. Apostasy is someone who knows the truth, and for a while believes that truth, but rejects it and turns away from it, like Judas Iscariot for example. He knew the truth, but he betrayed the truth, and turn from it, proving that he didn't belong to Him as Jesus said many times in the Gospels (Read John 13:18; 6:70-71). One thing you are failing to understand is that when John says in 1 John 2:19, "but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." meaning that those who went out that didn't continue with them weren't saved, they weren't "one of us" for if they were "one of us" they would have continued with us if they were saved.

I'll give you another example, the parable of the sower. We see that 1 out of the 4 seeds sown were saved, the rest were either scourged by the sun, eaten up by birds, or were choked by the thorns, and some of the heard the gospel and rejoiced but turned away because of persecution, or worldly desires, thats apostasy, only one of the seeds were saved because its fruit grew. The some seamed to have grown a little, but in the end died out, "manifesting themselves that they were not of us."

that is a contradiction in terms. A believer is a believer, bonefied in every way. When he falls, leaves, is not faithful any longer, he must be called an unbeliever. He is not a "lost so-called professing believer". He is a believer who became lost, thus an unbeliever.

Your reply here goes directly against Matthew 7:21-23.

[Eliyahuw]

Since we cannot be saved outside of Christ nor through unfaithfulness, we have lost salvation.

first of all you cannot lose salvation.

It is impossible to sin willingly IF, a very big IF, we remain in Christ.

[Eliyahuw]

Thaddaeus,

Scripture never says they were never saved. These are your interpretative words. It says that they departed, proving that they are not of us. They made their fall manifest. Apostasy can be used, but apostasy is impossible unless you have held, believed in a position from which you changed. An unbeliever cannot EVER be an apostate. Apostate from what? ONLY a believer can become an apostate, meaning he has become an unbeliever, he is no longer a believer. One cannot be in both states at the same time. So, obviously verbs must convey that action of change.

Thanks for your reply. Your definition of apostasy is unbiblical. Apostasy is someone who knows the truth, and for a while believes that truth, but rejects it and turns away from it, like Judas Iscariot for example. He knew the truth, but he betrayed the truth, and turn from it, proving that he didn't belong to Him as Jesus said many times in the Gospels (Read John 13:18; 6:70-71). One thing you are failing to understand is that when John says in 1 John 2:19, "but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." meaning that those who went out that didn't continue with them weren't saved, they weren't "one of us" for if they were "one of us" they would have continued with us if they were saved.

I'll give you another example, the parable of the sower. We see that 1 out of the 4 seeds sown were saved, the rest were either scourged by the sun, eaten up by birds, or were choked by the thorns, and some of the heard the gospel and rejoiced but turned away because of persecution, or worldly desires, thats apostasy, only one of the seeds were saved because its fruit grew. The some seamed to have grown a little, but in the end died out, "manifesting themselves that they were not of us."

that is a contradiction in terms. A believer is a believer, bonefied in every way. When he falls, leaves, is not faithful any longer, he must be called an unbeliever. He is not a "lost so-called professing believer". He is a believer who became lost, thus an unbeliever.

Your reply here goes directly against Matthew 7:21-23.

[Thaddaeus]

BurnForChrist,

Your definition of apostasy is unbiblical. Apostasy is someone who knows the truth, and for a while believes that truth, but rejects it and turns away from it, like Judas Iscariot for example. He knew the truth, but he betrayed the truth, and turn from it, proving that he didn't belong to Him as Jesus said many times in the Gospels (Read John 13:18; 6:70-71).

you say my definition is unbiblical, then you procede to precisely paraphrase that definition. What don't you understand?

One thing you are failing to understand is that when John says in 1 John 2:19, "but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." meaning that those who went out that didn't continue with them weren't saved, they weren't "one of us" for if they were "one of us" they would have continued with us if they were saved.

Ah, but this part of your definition is why you don't understand.

One cannot be In and Out at the same time. If one is a believer, and they fall, leave, depart from us, they are no longer a believer, but an unbeliever. These are not unbelievers leaving the fold, leaving the union they had with Christ. That is precisely what makes them apostates. Once were, but now no longer.

I'll give you another example, the parable of the sower. We see that 1 out of the 4 seeds sown were saved, the rest were either scourged by the sun, eaten up by birds, or were choked by the thorns, and some of the heard the gospel and rejoiced but turned away because of persecution, or worldly desires, thats apostasy, only one of the seeds were saved because its fruit grew. The some seamed to have grown a little, but in the end died out, "manifesting themselves that they were not of us."

But this does not convey this at all. Every single example, except the very first, which were those who heard but NEVER accepted Christ. All the others believed, had faith, but 2 of those fell away after a time. They became apostates, they became unbelievers, they fell from grace, they departed, they lost their inheritance(salvation of their souls).

Your reply here goes directly against Matthew 7:21-23.

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

first of all you cannot lose salvation.

I could say, you cannot lose something you don't have. In a real sense this is true, for only a dead believer cannot lose salvation. Anytime in this life, a believer must constantly test himself to be sure he is being faithful, that he remains IN Christ. Our salvation in this life is an ongoing event. We are saved through faith. Can you find a text that says a believer in this life can not lose faith? Having belief (faith) is salvation. Can you find any text that shows a person who loses faith, still being saved?

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

But being righteous one must remain faithful, otherwise they shall go away to everlasting punishment. The text does nothing to support your view. The Bible clearly defines who the righteous are, those that are in faith, thus IN Christ. One CANNOT BE IN CHRIST if one is unfaithful, loses faith. It does not say we are saved through our unfaithfulness, does it?

We're made righteous by the shedding of his blood. and we recieve eternal life by

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

here both aspects of salvation is visible. The salvation of mankind and the salvation of individuals. The latter clearly cannot take place without the former. All of mankind recieves eternal life, but those that believe receive eternal life with Him. That is the difference.

And noone, can pluck those thta he gives eternal life to out of his hands.

This is applicable to both elements of salvation. Man cannot undo the Work of Christ on the Cross, the Incarnation, that Christ by His resurrection gave life to all of mankind. All shall be raised in the last day to stand in judgement of what they did with that Great Gift of Mercy, and whether they believed or not. The context of this particular phrase is addressing believers, so the implication is WITH HIM.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not even addressing believers, but mankind. All die through Adam. All recieve life through Christ. This is the great equation of the first Adam with the Second Adam. As in Adam all men die, so also in Christ shall all men be made alive. This is confirmed by such texts as Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22. He is truly the SAVIOR of the world.

the simple fact is that if you could possibly lose salvation after you receive christ, then there can be no such thing as eternal life if you can lose it!

There is no grey area in this.

Unfortunately for your view, unbelievers, reprobates, will also have eternal life through Christ. See the above texts. In fact study all of these texts which confirms the understanding of the Incarnation and the salvation of mankind from the condemnation through Adam. See if you can actually refute any of these texts:

Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.

So, I definitely agree with you that no man will lose eternal life. There is no gray at all.

[Eliyahuw]

I could say, you cannot lose something you don't have. In a real sense this is true, for only a dead believer cannot lose salvation. Anytime in this life, a believer must constantly test himself to be sure he is being faithful, that he remains IN Christ. Our salvation in this life is an ongoing event. We are saved through faith. Can you find a text that says a believer in this life can not lose faith? Having belief (faith) is salvation. Can you find any text that shows a person who loses faith, still being saved?

Oh your back on this Salvation is by works thing. Salvation is a gift, not soemthing you work for.

Eph 2:8&9

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

But being righteous one must remain faithful,

sorry but were made righteous by Christs Blood! Thats something we can't do no matter how many works we preform.

We're made righteous by the shedding of his blood. and we recieve eternal life by

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

here both aspects of salvation is visible. The salvation of mankind and the salvation of individuals. The latter clearly cannot take place without the former. All of mankind recieves eternal life, but those that believe receive eternal life with Him. That is the difference.

theres that universalism again. Nope, mankind is not saved. period. mankind is lost! Salvation is on a individual basis, not on a mass basis. we recieve salvation and eternal life the moment we believe on christ.

And noone, can pluck those thta he gives eternal life to out of his hands.

This is applicable to both elements of salvation. Man cannot undo the Work of Christ on the Cross, the Incarnation, that Christ by His resurrection gave life to all of mankind. All shall be raised in the last day to stand in judgement of what they did with that Great Gift of Mercy, and whether they believed or not. The context of this particular phrase is addressing believers, so the implication is WITH HIM.

No all shall not be raised and stand in front of the GWTJ. Christians will go to heaven upon death, and then on the GWTJ day, the dead will be raised from hell, and be judged according to their rejection of christ.

Christians are judged can't remember the name of it, but judged according to their rewards they lay up in heaven and it is not a judgement of their Salvation. it is just a judgment of what they do after being saved.

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not even addressing believers, but mankind. All die through Adam. All recieve life through Christ. This is the great equation of the first Adam with the Second Adam. As in Adam all men die, so also in Christ shall all men be made alive. This is confirmed by such texts as Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, I Cor 15:20-22. He is truly the SAVIOR of the world.

Still doesn't negate the fact that Grace brings eternal life through Christs blood. And its eternal, not conditional.

the simple fact is that if you could possibly lose salvation after you receive christ, then there can be no such thing as eternal life if you can lose it!

There is no grey area in this.

Unfortunately for your view, unbelievers, reprobates, will also have eternal life through Christ. See the above texts. In fact study all of these texts which confirms the understanding of the Incarnation and the salvation of mankind from the condemnation through Adam. See if you can actually refute any of these texts:

No unbelievers will not have eternal life. I hvae NEVER SAID unbelievers will have eternal life! YOU are saying that. YOU said that all of mankind is saved which is soooo far from the truth!

I have refuted your texts in another posts in another thread. i'm not repeating myself here.

Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Universalism is a cult belief. Its from hell!

[Thaddaeus]

Eliyahuw,

Oh your back on this Salvation is by works thing. Salvation is a gift, not soemthing you work for.

Eph 2:8&9

Yes, eternal life, and the propitiation of our sins is a gift to ALL MANKIND. But the latter half of that text also says we are saved through our faith. How about adding verse 10 which makes your whole statment false. It is because you do not understand the difference between what Christ did for mankind and what each man is responsible for relative to his created purpose. If you get those parts straight then you might understand some of these texts.

sorry but were made righteous by Christs Blood! Thats something we can't do no matter how many works we preform.

But so was every single human being that ever lived and will live. We were all reconciled to God through Christ. In fact the entire universe was reconciled to God through Christ. Col 1:15-20, II Cor 5:18-21.

And you are very correct that man can do nothing to add to, subtract from or even deny the Work of Christ. But that is why it is not relevant to the topic. The topic is dealing with believers, those that believe.

theres that universalism again. Nope, mankind is not saved. period. mankind is lost!

you keep on asserting this but you have not yet given any texts that deny that statement. You have not yet given any texts that deny all those texts I gave above. this is possibly the fourth time I gave those in this thread and no one, so far, has ever refuted them. Might there be a reason?

Also, it is not universalism, but it does proclaim universal redemption, reconciliation, justification of mankind to God. There is a huge difference. Obviously that difference is escaping your understanding.

Salvation is on a individual basis, not on a mass basis. we recieve salvation and eternal life the moment we believe on christ.

so Christ is crucified, dies and is resurrected each time an individual believes? The salvation from the fall is universal. I Cor 15 expounds on this very clearly. Faith does not grant life. Faith only grants spiritual life with Christ, It is a spiritual existance which is impossible without the resurrection as the key to the salvation of mankind and of our individual souls. If Christ did not save mankind from the fall, then all those He failed to save, are still under the condemnation of Adam, which is death. Death means the separation of the body and soul, it is the annihilation of the human being, See Gen 3:19, dust to dust we would all become, IF Christ had not redeemed mankind from this destruction, from death.

We receive the salvation of our souls on an individual bases. It is through faith by which we are saved. This is wholly impossible because of the fall. Christ corrected the fall, so we, as human beings could do what we were created to do, from which we fell, due to the fall. Your theology needs an overhaul.

Hell cannot exist except that Christ redeemed mankind. It is because all men have been made alive through His resurrection that all shall be raised and all shall stand in judgement. None, not a human being was lost. See John 6:39.

No all shall not be raised and stand in front of the GWTJ. Christians will go to heaven upon death, and then on the GWTJ day, the dead will be raised from hell, and be judged according to their rejection of christ.

Then obviously you don't believe Christ is the first born of the dead. He is the first fruit of them that slept. One must they ascertain that not all men died. Some have been eternal for day one. Only those that died would be raised from the dead. I know of no text that says, ONLY some shall be raised from the dead. In no text is there ever a limitation on the dead arising. Again, all the corrobative texts I listed above deny your assertion.

Or the way you say it, Christians are all taken to heaven and really never die physcially. Death must have some other meaning in your theology. I would be interested in hearing it.

Christians are judged can't remember the name of it, but judged according to their rewards they lay up in heaven and it is not a judgement of their Salvation. it is just a judgment of what they do after being saved.

The first reward is the Crown of life which is life in Christ. If you have not this reward, all the others are moot. Those that are faithful, surely will recieve a different level of reward, but the same is true for those in hell. That does not negate that there is a great judgment of all of mankind in the last day.

Still doesn't negate the fact that Grace brings eternal life through Christs blood. And its eternal, not conditional.

I have never stated it as conditional. What I have been stating is that it is not even relevant to the discussion of faith. It is all a given. Given to mankind. Faith only separates the believer and unbeliever, difference of heaven and hell. Faith is conditional. We need to be and remain faithful. We cannot change what Christ did for mankind.

No unbelievers will not have eternal life. I hvae NEVER SAID unbelievers will have eternal life! YOU are saying that. YOU said that all of mankind is saved which is soooo far from the truth!

I have refuted your texts in another posts in another thread. i'm not repeating myself here.

I know you have never stated this. That is why your view is unscriptural. You are denying the Incarnation, one of the marks of True Faith, of Christianity. I am indeed saying that, because that is the Truth. You have not yet given any text that refutes that understanding.

There is a huge difference in also saying mankind is saved from the fall, and all men are saved. That is Universalism. But saying all men are saved from the fall is clearly scriptural. Death was overcome. Obviously also, you don't believe Christ conquered death by His resurrection. Did you carefully read I Cor 15.

My list of texts; Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:14-19; I Cor 15:20-22; I John 4:14, Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work.

Your response:

Universalism is a cult belief. Its from hell!

I agree with your statement. But it has nothing to do with what I have so far stated, nor what the texts are stating. Quite obvious you do not understand scripture nor do you know the meaning of the word or belief known as Universalism. The texts above all deny Universalism. Expecially several of the corrobative texts that are listed. It is obvious that you did not read them, study them.

Since you did state that those in hell before Christ returns will be raised, might I ask just how your understanding of anything in scripture allows these individuals to gain life, a physical existance, since they clearly are stated as having died. You also imply by your rejection of the Incarnation, that these individuals are still under Adam. Who redeemed them from that curse. It was permanent. God was not kidding in Gen 3:19.

[Neopatriarch]

Yes, eternal life, and the propitiation of our sins is a gift to ALL MANKIND.

Let me see if I understand you. You are saying that God's wrath against all sinful men, believers and nonbelievers alike, has been appeased by the suffering and death of Christ. But what about those in hell already? The price has been paid for their sins, but they are in hell paying for those sins a second time, right? Or, is there no punishment for sins in hell?

I suppose you could say that people are in hell because they rejected Christ, but rejecting Christ is a sin. If Christ paid for that sin, then it shouldn't be paid for a second time. Either that, or they are getting punished just for the heck of it.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Ephesians 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

How can God's wrath be poured out on men for their sins if Christ's has appeased God's wrath for everyone?

-Neopatriarch