Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[apothanein kerdos]

The problem with people saying we can lose our salvation is that there is no qualification to exactly how we lose our salvation.

If we verbally renounce Christ, we lose it. Yet, why are the verbals more important than our actions, if anything, the Bible is clear that God looks to our heart (actions) and judges us from this, not from what we have said. If that is our case, our actions can deny Christ, and therefore sin can cause us to lose our salvation. Yet, how big a sin? If I go out and murder people, I have sinned greatly, against man and against God...thus I guess my salvation has been lost. Of course, if I just sit around and I'm lazy and slothful, only working when necessary, is my salvation still lost for such a minimal sin? Going back to murder, what if I just hate someone, which Jesus says is the equivalent to murder. Do I then lose my salvation?

The fact is, people who preach against perseverance of the saints generally have not studied the idea of sanctification...or thought through the ramifications of their own belief.

[AMB]

I came across this also in my readings, it is from early church fathers, some of whom were companions of the apostles who wrote the NT:

Let us then practice reighteousness so that we may be saved unto the end. Clement of Rome

Even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For the climax of the drama, he has given up his part. Clement of Alexandria

Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So they turn His liberality into His slavery . . . For do not many aferwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many? Tertullian

A man may posses an acquired righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen

Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus

I know these are not scripture so I am not protraying them as such, but just to point out that this discussion has been going on since His death, and these are just some of the thought of some of the early church fathers.

Enjoy.

[apothanein kerdos]

I came across this also in my readings, it is from early church fathers, some of whom were companions of the apostles who wrote the NT:

Let us then practice reighteousness so that we may be saved unto the end. Clement of Rome

Even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For the climax of the drama, he has given up his part. Clement of Alexandria

Some think that God is under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy what He has promised to give. So they turn His liberality into His slavery . . . For do not many aferwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many? Tertullian

A man may posses an acquired righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen

Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus

I know these are not scripture so I am not protraying them as such, but just to point out that this discussion has been going on since His death, and these are just some of the thought of some of the early church fathers.

Enjoy.

Not a single one of these were companions of the apostles. Most of the men you quote did not start writing until the middle to the late second century...thus, unless they were well into their 90's or above, they did not know the apostles. In fact, we do not have any writings from those who knew the apostles (except that which is in the New Testament). The closest we can get is to the third generation Christians. Furthermore, many of them showed early signs of heresy or departing from scripture. Keep in mind that at this time there were no uniformed creeds and/or doctrines, thus men would often believe what they wanted to. Lastly, many of these men relied on apocryphal works and not the entirety of the New Testament in order to create their theology - not only were they influenced by this, but during persecutions they had people who would leave the faith and sacrifice to the Roman Emperor. In an attempt to keep these people from coming back, they simply said they were no longer saved. It became an easy way to excommunicate people from the Church. You must look at the history of the theology before commenting on it.

I would also add that Ignatius believed we could never be restored back to Christ once we had "lost" our salvation. What is more interesting, is that when Tertullian writes what you quote in On Redemption he is arguing against people who believe in eternal security. Unfortunately, these writings have been mostly lost - what it does show us is that he was arguing against a sect of Christians that believed in eternal security.

[Eliyahuw]

The doctrine of Christ says that Christs sacrifice was enough to save us from our sins and give us everlasting life. Where does it say you have to work for a gift?

A gift is a gift, something freely given, with no expectation of anything in return.

For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast.

Is Christ a liar??

Either he said it was a gift, or he is a Liar. You my friend have a conundrum here.

Thanks for the reply my friend. It is interesting that you would think that I am questioning the integrity of our saviour by pointing out scriptures, but that is a point of view you've chosen to take. We are all here to grow, and we should do that in love.

[Eliyahuw]

The problem with people saying we can lose our salvation is that there is no qualification to exactly how we lose our salvation.

EXACTLY!

The qualifications to lose ones salvation are set so high that most people even if they tried could not lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6 give the specifics on how to lose salvation. Instruction manual if you please. It specifically says that it is impossible to do, but for the sake of argument he listed the requirements to lose ones salvation.

If we verbally renounce Christ, we lose it. Yet, why are the verbals more important than our actions, if anything, the Bible is clear that God looks to our heart (actions) and judges us from this, not from what we have said. If that is our case, our actions can deny Christ, and therefore sin can cause us to lose our salvation. Yet, how big a sin? If I go out and murder people, I have sinned greatly, against man and against God...thus I guess my salvation has been lost. Of course, if I just sit around and I'm lazy and slothful, only working when necessary, is my salvation still lost for such a minimal sin? Going back to murder, what if I just hate someone, which Jesus says is the equivalent to murder. Do I then lose my salvation?

The fact is, people who preach against perseverance of the saints generally have not studied the idea of sanctification...or thought through the ramifications of their own belief.

Verbal won't work, actions won't work either. You have to have recieved everything listed in hebrews 6:4-6 and THEN you have to work against christ I.E. for Satan, and influence and deceive lost souls to prevent them from hearing the word of God.

[apothanein kerdos]

For those who make or think statements like that was quoted above, please understand that we don't lose our salvation for committing one sin. We lose it for not repenting of our sins.

Say I become a Christian and after awhile of attending my church I find a nice girl in the congregation and we start seeing each other and eventually we start living in fornication. If Christ comes back and finds me living in that sin will I make it to heaven? According to scripture I won't.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up!

As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple!

[Kabowd]

This is a I have seen other times before and is usually said from people who don't know much of the scriptures.

Soo...even though this debate has gone on for centuries (between highly educated believers, historians and theologians), you have it all figured out and believe that those who disagree do so because they simply "don't know much of the scriptures"?

[spiritman]

Hi Edwin (PaBrain),

In order to break things up a bit, I thought I would start a new reply.

I pray that you had a good day,I needed to rest a little it was about 2:00am when I finished my last post to you, and I got a bit tired. Now lets talk about the oil in Matthew 25; does it represent real oil, or does it represent the Holy Spirit?

First I

[Eliyahuw]

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up!

You still don't get it. What is your heart? Are you a liar at heart or did you just slip up like everybody else and give into the flesh at that instance?

There are two different kinds of people who sin. Those who sin and get up and repent verses those who don't care and will justify sinning the way you say. I have heard people say that God doesn't care about little sins like that because we are under the blood of Christ and are automatically forgiven. That can't happen because there is no repentance and people are sinning wilfully.

You know the question that was asked was a valid one based on what was previously said. If i go out on a date and lets say things get out of hand and get started and say go have sex outside of marraige and i die in the middle of having sex, then what was said is I lose my salvation and go to hell.

Basically what your saying if you think i will go to hell is that Christs blood isn't enough to save me. Being human, and not perfect at that, there is no chance in this world that i won't sin and if i happen to comit a inevitable sin and just so unlucky as to die that moment?? Makes no sense. What would be the use in bothering in the first place if all i had done is for naught.

[spiritman]

WOW!!!!!

I can't believe this is still going on. A lot of this I have read and there is a lot that is to much to read.

Let's go back to the beginning -

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We know that the bible was given to us for a reason, it is our instruction in righteousness and is inspired by God. Everything we need to know about our salvation is written in the scriptures. I believe, like somebody wrote earlier, that people are only using scriptures that support thier side of belief and not using ALL of the scriptures. If we were to use the scriptures they were meant to be used we could form a map of salvation the way that God meant it to be.

Here is the start -

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

We all know that we cannot be saved unless we are born again. When we are born again all of our past sins are washed away, we have the listening ear of God now that Christ is our mediator, we are sealed with the Holy Ghost which is our seal of redemption, and we can reach the blood of Christ at any time we sin by asking for forgiviness for our sins that we committ after being born again.

All of this is by the grace of God and not of any works that we have done, but we are required to continue in the faith roodted and grounded.

We continue in the faith by staying away from the sins we were saved from and repenting.

Romans 8:11-13 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This is how we work out or salvation in fear and trembling and how we support our faith by our works when we mortify the deeds of the body. In other words, repentance.

You see, the difference between a Christian and a sinner is that while a Christian is living their lives to the will of God sinners are not. Sinners live their lives after their flesh and Christians do not, but we all know this.

Now, we know that sinners, who choose not to obey God will have thier places in the lake of fire on judgement day. What we are trying to establish here is that Christians who either do not repent of their sins or turn their back can lose what God has promised them if they continue in the faith.

God is faithful to give us what he has promised if we continue in the faith. People continually dismiss Hebrews 6, but here is another scripture stipulating what happens to disobedient Christians -

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

These verses of scripture are pointed directly to Christians.

The problem with the belief that one can lose their salvation is that it leaves one to sacrifice christ multiple times.

Oops you sin, so yo lose salvation, call upon christ again, get your salvation back, oops you sin again so your not saved. Personally, i think Christ has a better use of time than having a big eraser and using it in the book of life everytime someone sins.

This is a I have seen other times before and is usually said from people who don't know much of the scriptures. We know that when Christ comes back he will find us either faithful or not faithful. We know that sinners are not faithful. We can also find those who have been born again can also be found not faithful. What makes us not faithful is not the fact that I sinned, but for the fact that there is sin in my life that I choose not to give up.

For those who make or think statements like that was quoted above, please understand that we don't lose our salvation for committing one sin. We lose it for not repenting of our sins.

Say I become a Christian and after awhile of attending my church I find a nice girl in the congregation and we start seeing each other and eventually we start living in fornication. If Christ comes back and finds me living in that sin will I make it to heaven? According to scripture I won't.

Now, say if it was a one time affair that I repented of and confessed. Do I lose my salvation? No, I don't.

Our lives as Christians are judged by God. Our hearts are judged by God. These are done everyday and that is why we are told to examine ourselves. Where is my mind and heart as a Christian? Is it still the servant and master to fufill the flesh and sin or to do the will of God? Go's will is that we ALL REPENT of our sins and walk after his commandments. If you can't do this then you won't make it.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

We know that a sin is a transgression of the law. We are under the law of Christ which is the whole New Testement.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now, we all committ some of these sins. The problem isn't falling into them if we repent and confess them, but how many of us have these sins in our lives that we don't or won't repent of?

When I work out my salvation and show my faith by my works it is the repenting of these sins and keeping themout of my life when I am tempted by them. If I allow these to stay in my life then God will take away the Holy Spirit and my name out of the book of life because I choose to live in sin rather than according to his will.

I have seen in my lifetime Christians from 1 day to 30 years turn their backs on God and walk with him no more because they chose to after their flesh more than God.

Nobody can say they were never Christians because some of them were preachers and teachers that did many wonderful works in the Church. There came a time in their lives that they just gave up.

Paul talked of the race that we run and the keeping of the faith till death.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Those who choose to walk with Christ no more gave up. We also find those who want to live Christianity, but also want to keep some sins. They want their cake and eat it to. This will also cause us to lose our salvation if we don't repent and let go of those sins.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

I can't run that race if there is still sin in my life I won't let go of. As mentioned above, when we mortify the deeds of our body we are letting go of those sins that will beset us. Those are the sins that will lose our salvation.

We also know that there are many scriptures that say that our reward is without corruption and that it can't be taken from us. That is all true. What we are establishing here is that I can give it up.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

This is a Christian that turned his back on God. If he remains in that state he will lose his salvation, but if he repents then God may have mercy on him.

The race we run and the war we fight is against our own flesh. The flesh wareth aginst the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. It is up to us with the help of Christ to overcome our flesh and not sin.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What is the opposite of this verse? If I don't overcome then my name will be blotted out of the book of life.

AMEN CARDCAPTOR!!!!! YOU HAVE SPOKEN THE TRUTH!!!!!