TomPJr Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Tom, It's worthless to debate you. You keep rambling on about useless things when you never addressed the verse in PHILIPPIANS, nor the covenants with Abraham, Hosea, or Israel and how they were forced to stay with them. The fact is, I could bring up a plethora of scriptures with a paragraph of explanation to each one, showing how you are wrong. You wouldn't listen to it because your mind is already made up and you refuse to learn. No, it is like Tom said when we add line upon line and precept upon precept. What you are seeing being done is using many scriptures to support the same idea rather than basing a belief system just off of one or two scriptures. No, when you use a prima facie reading of all the scriptures, compounding them only provides for compounded mistakes and does not create truth by any stretch of the imagination. Your search for "the Greek? The context? The historical background?" has been your biggest stumbling block to understanding what is being said. God has never required for us to use such tactics to understanding his word. These scriptures are not as complex as you think they are. I could go deeper than I did, but I think that would take away from their simplicity. The scriptures are simple? Mind telling that to Peter, who said they are hard to understand? I did to address it many times....we disagree about that verse. so it's up to you to provide other evidence to support your belief if you want me to consider it. I already gave you some of mine but you keep repeating that I don't address it when I did. You are a contradiction to yourself. you say in one post that you must use prima facie, and in another that you can't. My mind is made up, as is yours, but I base my beliefs on more that just one scripture. If you are truly Christianly concerned about convincing me, why are you so stuck on repeating the same thing over and over, and being too lazy to find a few scriptures to back you up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Question: What are some of the means by which a Christian can lose his salvation and perish in the lake of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2007 Let me try this agian. All sin warrents being cast into hell, but God is merciful to forgive us if we repent and confess them. If I choose to just keep sin in my life after becoming a Christian then I will stand in judgment to answer for those sins just like a sinner. ...is a mutually exclusive idea to this.... The human mind is not perfect and we will not remember every single sin that we have committed. There are times when we will later in our Christianity learn of a sin and realize that I have been doing it all along. Will I remember every single instance in my past that I committed the sin to be able to confess it? No, we won't. We know that by the mercy of God that he knows our heart and work with us. We all know fornication is a sin...but what if we're ignorant of it? What if we are a new Christian who has not learned it is a sin? Do we still go to hell? If not, if ignorance to what is sin can save us...then why witness? Your belief brings up so many problems and loopholes that it negates the entire need for evangelism and reading the Bible. If ignorance to what is sin saves us and brings us to God, then we are doing a terrible disservice to people by witnessing. Alternatively, if you come back and say that ignorance doesn't save us, and we are still held accountable for what is sin even if we were ignorant to it, then your entire premise of, "forgotten sins will be forgiven" gets flushed. Regardless, at this point, salvation is based on works. If I sin, I violate a work, therefore my works have condemned me. It's such a pagan belief that I can't accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2007 I did to address it many times....we disagree about that verse. so it's up to you to provide other evidence to support your belief if you want me to consider it. I already gave you some of mine but you keep repeating that I don't address it when I did. You are a contradiction to yourself. you say in one post that you must use prima facie, and in another that you can't. You never used any exegetical reasoning for why you disagreed, which is why I kept bringing up the verse. In the next post, you better quote me, verbatim, where I said you must use prima facie when reading scriptures. Quote me, because I never said it. If you can't supply a quote, then admit that you're lost in this debate and then kindly back out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 16, 2007 "As becometh saints" means Christians. This is just one of the lists that we are given of sins that will keep us out of heaven. If I die not repenting of these sins or Christ comes back to find I have not repented of these sins then I won't go to heaven. As Christians our names are written in the Book of Life. If I choose to hold onto my sins and not overcome them then my name will be taken out. If I don't overcome my sins my name will be taken out - If on judgment day my name is not in the Book of Life I will be cast into the lake of fire. Okay. So in your view unconfessed sins or the incapacity to overcome sins are both means by which Christians can perish in the lake of fire. How then do you deal with what the Lord Jesus said about all those who believe into Him? "And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28, cf. 3:16) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPJr Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I did to address it many times....we disagree about that verse. so it's up to you to provide other evidence to support your belief if you want me to consider it. I already gave you some of mine but you keep repeating that I don't address it when I did. You are a contradiction to yourself. you say in one post that you must use prima facie, and in another that you can't. You never used any exegetical reasoning for why you disagreed, which is why I kept bringing up the verse. In the next post, you better quote me, verbatim, where I said you must use prima facie when reading scriptures. Quote me, because I never said it. If you can't supply a quote, then admit that you're lost in this debate and then kindly back out. In all fairness, I would like to humor you and give you exegetical reasoning as you ask. I really thought that I already did. ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted February 16, 2007 "As becometh saints" means Christians. This is just one of the lists that we are given of sins that will keep us out of heaven. If I die not repenting of these sins or Christ comes back to find I have not repented of these sins then I won't go to heaven. As Christians our names are written in the Book of Life. If I choose to hold onto my sins and not overcome them then my name will be taken out. If I don't overcome my sins my name will be taken out - If on judgment day my name is not in the Book of Life I will be cast into the lake of fire. Okay. So in your view unconfessed sins or the incapacity to overcome sins are both means by which Christians can perish in the lake of fire. How then do you deal with what the Lord Jesus said about all those who believe into Him? "And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28, cf. 3:16) That is true as long as we are in the grace of God, but I can take myself right out of that grace by returning to the world of sin I was saved from. Instead of compiling all the scriptures together to get a clear understanding people are basing their beliefs off of just a few choice scriptures. When this is done it creates contradictions of the gospel. Outside of what you just said when do have scriptures that say that Christians can go to hell for unrepented sins just like sinners will. I keep repeating this scripture and it keeps getting ignored - Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. This is spoke of Christians to Christians. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahsway Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/15/1959 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Cardcaptor, do you mean like a dog returning to his own vomit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 16, 2007 "As becometh saints" means Christians. This is just one of the lists that we are given of sins that will keep us out of heaven. If I die not repenting of these sins or Christ comes back to find I have not repented of these sins then I won't go to heaven. As Christians our names are written in the Book of Life. If I choose to hold onto my sins and not overcome them then my name will be taken out. If I don't overcome my sins my name will be taken out - If on judgment day my name is not in the Book of Life I will be cast into the lake of fire. Okay. So in your view unconfessed sins or the incapacity to overcome sins are both means by which Christians can perish in the lake of fire. How then do you deal with what the Lord Jesus said about all those who believe into Him? "And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:28, cf. 3:16) That is true as long as we are in the grace of God, but I can take myself right out of that grace by returning to the world of sin I was saved from. Instead of compiling all the scriptures together to get a clear understanding people are basing their beliefs off of just a few choice scriptures. When this is done it creates contradictions of the gospel. Outside of what you just said we do have scriptures that say that Christians can go to hell for unrepented sins just like sinners will. I keep repeating this scripture and it keeps getting ignored - Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. This is spoke of Christians to Christians. But the Lord Jesus applied absolutely no conditions to His statement at all. So how is it that you find a conditional salvation, where Jesus did not frame it as such? And if all the Scriptures are God-breathed, and do not contradict one another, then what difference should it make if I use one or ten? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2007 will you please tell me what you mean by exegetical. All the examples that I gave are ignored by you. If you have another Idea of the definition, then please enlighten me on your definition of exegetical. Are you serious? What do you think I meant when I kept repeating Greek, History, contextual evidence, etc? What you are saying that repenting of our sins is a pagan belief. No, the idea that we can lose our salvation is pagan in its origin. That's what I was saying. The reason is that it ultimately makes salvation a man centered experience instead of a God centered one. Phil 2:12 says to work out your salvation. But according to you this is a pagan belief and it is quite clear you won't accept these verses. You continue to bring this passage up, free of any exegetical study. Since you won't do it, I will: Paul is referring to doing good works that are visible, that is, physical works prior to this in the passage. It therefore makes since that he would use the Greek idiom katergazethe which means "to perform." A better translation than "work out" is "put into action your salvation." He is telling them to obey and let others see the Christ that is within them - not to maintain their salvation. If your translation was valid, then the next verse would make no sense: "...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work bfor His good pleasure." In other words, they are told to display the good works of their salvation because God is the one putting the good works into them. In all honest, if your passage were to be interpreted as you wish, then it should have some combination of pros ergon (work for) in the context, but it doesn't. To validate what I have said, here is an exert from a commentary: Therefore connects these verses with what immediately precedes them. Christ obeyed the Father and carried out His plan even to death on the cross (v. 8). The Philippian Christians needed to obey, to follow Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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