Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Openly Curious]

yes Butero,

that is what I was trying to say in my post that Hosea redeemed his wife he bought her back and it was not by force.

oc

[TomPJr]

Tom, what does it mean to speak against the Holy Spirit?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If you are saying that the conviction from the Holy Spirit is not real, or you make excuses, you are speaking against the Holy Spirits work. You are taking it upon yourself to decide what's right or wrong instead of really listening to the Holy Spirit. Think about it....To blaspheme God, you claim the power of God for yourself....If you are choosing to rebel against the Holy Spirit and rely on your own interpretation and understanding of what is good and acceptable, then you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming those attributes that are possessed by the Holy Spirit.

and...

Salvation comes by faithe, confession, asking forgiveness, and repentence.....if you continually ignore the Holy Spirit you become in danger of hardening your heart and deafening you ears to the very one who convicts you to do those things.

Then you will no longer be convicted to ask fogiveness or repent. The only unforgiveable sin is the one you fail to ask forgiveness for. That is why we should head the convictions from the Holy Spirit lest we Grieve him away.

[TomPJr]

some think it is when you accept Christ.

I think it is when your heart is converted.

When Christ is received the heart is converted:

"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will take the stony heart out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh," (Ezek. 11:19)

There is only one prerequisite to receiving the Lord:

"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.

For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame.''

...

For "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'' (Rom. 10:9-11, 13)

Anything in addition is either a work or man's addition to the pure and simple Gospel.

even Satan and his angels confess God.....and they believe.

[TomPJr]

Questions?

but God the Father is our Heavenly Father and it is his will we must do or else we following the nature of Satan and go back up under the law of sin and death.

Just curious if anyone has any answers regarding this.

oc

Hmm that would mean the blood shed on the cross by Jesus wasn't sufficient enough to overcome the law when we accept him as Lord over our life.

You stated three words that threw up a red flag for me...."we must do"....we mustn't do anything but place our faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

the blood on the cross did not overcome the law in anyway...in fact his blood was shed because of the law. If there was no law there would have been no transgression and no need for the sacrifice.

Jesus's blood made it possible to reconcile us to God. Even if you stopped sinning, if it weren't for Jesus, you still wouldn't be able to be reconciled. Even if you stopped sinning totally(because of your passed sin).

Jesus did not do away with the law, but he established it and how we can keep it.

[matthew4:4]

OSAS really depends on if you have truly in your heart accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that he died on the cross for are sins. If you have truly, withought a doubt then you have recieved the gift of eternal life. Please read the following verses and tell me where im at fault.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So once you know him nothing can seperate you. Nothing in this world.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

I'm sure you have all seen this one before but how can you disregard it. Its very clear and notice it does not say and if you believe God raised him from the dead, and keep the commandments and decrees you will be saved. No, it just says very clearly put you will be saved.

Romans 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable

ir

[apothanein kerdos]

apothanein Kerdos,

Augustine, as well as other sects of Christianity taught Eternal Security as early at the 4th and 5th century. Likewise, it didn't become a big issue until Calvin during the Reformation - the reason is the sects of Christianity were too busy arguing against the blood thirsty Catholic Church to cover this issue.

That may be but Augustine's teachings were not ever accepted by the Church. He was not incorrect on some, but whatever good or correct he may have written, was discounted by the several that were not true to the "rule of faith". That Calvin and Luther picked up on it, is for two reasons. He is a western influence and both Calvin and Luther were Augustinians. They were well taught. You might also note that Augustine is also, often called the Father of the Roman Catholic Church as well. Many of the false teachings I am referring to were influencial in several of the new dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, developed by subsequent individuals.

But, no teachings of a single person, makes Church doctrine, at least not in the Orthodox and ancient Holy Tradition of the Apostles.

You can discredit all you want. What it does prove is that you failed to study up on the history of this. It wasn't picked up later by Calvin and Luther - the belief continued through various sects of Christianity up to Calvin and Luther.

You stated that it was quite the modern invention. Unless you define everything from almost the first century to now as modern, you made a misstatement.

[Smalcald]

Smalcald,

But Thaddius, where would we be today without the Reformation? Christianity today would look like Catholicism looks in most of Western Europe, pretty much dead.

And the reformation is alive? I might agree that it is alive, but like an ameba, growing, growing and growing until it will fall in on itself from the sheer weight of conflicting gospels.

Certainly there was and is a cost to opening the bible, to opening the Gospel to all individuals not shutting it up and hiding it and you point that cost out well. But there is a great great benefit, and that is true lasting faith, which can only come from direct access to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit working that faith in us, this is what preserves the Word and the faith.

The Bible and the Gospel are not the same. The Bible is only the written portion of that Gospel.

I don't question the work of the Holy Spirit, even as a protestant. I would not be where I am today without protestantism. But it led me to the True Faith. You may disagree, and discount that, but that is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in my life. But neither that part, the written, confirms or gives individuals the permission to interpret, that is determine what that Gospel means. That was done by the Holy Spirit, given to the Apostles. That perogative is reserved for Christ Himself. He imparted His authority to the Apostles, they inturn to subsequent individuals, making up His Body. They received ALL Truth. They imparted that Truth, verbally for several decades, established practicing Churches all over the Roman Empire at that time. They recorded some, ONLY, because they could not personally travel back to those Churches. Thus, every single Book of the NT, except Romans was written on the basis that the subject had already heard, had been practicing Christianity for some time. That written was considered inspired, as much as the Oral teachings from which it originated. That Gospel is preserved in and through the saints, being indwelt by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ. It has retained that same Truth with consistancy since the Beginning. You can trace it from one century to the next unchanged.

The Gospels were the very last Books written. They are also the historical record of the life with Jesus on this earth, as the writers were taught and witnessed.

How many Orthodox around the world today read the bible or attend mass on a regular basis? Certainly I understand the yearning for ancient tradition and there are many good believers in your ranks, and yes God has used them, but faith does not need some sort of human lineage or historical authenticity, it proves itself.

I have no idea, but I do know that individual Orthodox are not any different than any other human beings. They do not have one up on that score. They are no better surely, but they also will be accorded much severer punishment for either rejection or not being faithful to that One True Faith. You may like to believe that it does not need either lineage or authenticity but the Bible portrays that as necessary. Paul gives adament instructions to Timothy on that very point. The laying on of Hands is that transfer in Human terms the Power of the Holy Spirit which He promised to His Church. Christ is Head of that Body, the Holy Spirit works only within that Body, made up of Believers.

You may be willing to condone all the myiad truths that have been developed since the 16th century. You might even be willing to condone all the changes made within the Roman Catholic Church as well. I was simply unwilling to consider that the Holy Spirit could be so confusing. That if what He actually stated in Scripture, was True, and I had put my faith in Him, then I should accept that along with that faith. If He did indeed preserve that Gospel, the All Truth, from the Beginning as stated in Jude 3 with the same unity as He prayed for in John 17, then I should accept that with that same faith as well. If I did not believe so, then all else is moot and vainglory.

I would rather have seen us still be one, but for whatever reason it was not to be, and God allowed this division to happen for good reasons, I see the proof of those reasons every day as the Gospel continues to spread.

If you see reasons, you must have special insight, because the Bible clearly states Christ is not divided, nor will there be many faiths. ONE Faith, ONE Lord, He established His Church for the purpose to assist those IN Him to live faithfully and to preserve that ONCE given Gospel.

The Church has never placed authority in one individual, nor even groups, not even Councils, not even a single Apostle(started with twelve) They all met in Jeruselem to mutually agree on the issue of circumcision. The authority lies in the Body which is Christ, made up of all beleivers from beginning till present. It is the rule of faith, the ONE faith that is preserved in that Body.

But which gospel are you referring to? Gods as He gave it, or all the varied interpretations from only a partial portion of it?

And that goes to an earlier statement in your post: what faith is being preserved?

Well I believe Luther was correct and the purest commentary of true doctrine was put forth by him, which is why I am a Lutheran, this is where the Holy Spirit has led me. But the faith that is being preserved is simple, the faith in Christ alone as our Lord and Savior and further the faith that Holy Scripture is His Word to humanity. But you are not correct, the entire Bible IS the Gospel, Galations is as much the Gospel as Matthew.

I know what you are saying about confusion though, and for me I also see the growing "ameba" since the 16th century. But you cannot say that the Gospel is any better preserved in the Eastern Schism Churches than it is in Rome or for that matter in Wittenberg the seat of Luther's teaching chair.

As far as reasons for division, of course I have no special insight, but then again did God allow the Great Schism or not? Was this Schism against His will? The benefit of division has been an open bible, and I will always defend that benefit over the cost of hiding direct access to the Word of God. You do admit that Protestantism had a role in your own conversion and life as a Christian, and indeed I do not doubt that God has led you to your spiritual home now, but God must have used the Protestants to bring you this home. If I would have had to wait for the Orthodox Church to reach me, I would be a pagan today, would God want that to happen, is that of the Holy Spirit? Scripturally we do have divisions discussed and approved however, although it is not a good thing, but a necessary thing.

1Cor.

17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

So here we see that indeed there were already divisions among these early believers and Church, and that Paul said that there must be these divisions, so that those who were correct would be seen.

I do believe that we are talking about an area of mystery though, and I will be very happy when we are one at His coming and we understand why the Church and us individually are today the way we are.

[EricH]

So bypassing all the glandular hysteria on this vital topic, one supposes the bottom-line is that our Pentecostal friends - according to what they insist on - can "lose their salvation" even tho they received "EVERLASTING salvation" and "ETERNAL life" ("SEALED until the day of redemption," Ephesians 1:13 & John 3:16).......and all other born-again Christians are saved ONCE-FOR-ALL-TIME by Jesus Christ (John 5:24) and GUARANTEED heaven thru the once-for-all, all-efficacious, fully-atoning, finished work of the Savior on Mt. Calvary. In point of biblical fact, there is no such thing anywhere in Holy Writ as being "born again, and again, and yet again!! ONCE IS FOREVER INDEED!

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your everlasting salvation purchased for us at such great cost. We will never cease to praise & thank You!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

I would like to point out that it is not just Pentecostals that reject OSAS, but Methodists and Weslyans. I used to be Methodist and know they didn't teach this erroneous doctrine. OSAS is primarily a doctrine shared by Baptists. They are teaching a watered down form of Calvanism.

OSAS is not even a doctrine. You are correct. It is more properly called the Perseverance of the Saints, and is totally different than what is being characterized here.

[Kabowd]

I probably won't be able to respond thoroughly in this topic until tomorrow, but i did want to reply to this:

By the way, though I know we don't agree on this particular issue, I am still glad to see you have decided to return Kabowd. We don't always see eye to eye, but I still consider you to be my sister in the Lord.

I wanted to let you know that I thought this was very gracious of you. I know that we've locked horns in the past (probably on this topic!), but it's been quite a long time and I think that we've each grown and matured quite a bit since then. I do consider the things you have to say, even if they differ from what I've been taught, because I respect you as a brother in the Lord and I can tell you truly do seek after God's wisdom and His truth. I appreciate the kindness you've expressed to me and I consider it a pleasure to have conversations with you. Contrary to what some may believe, I don't simply "write-off" those who disagree with me or just think that someone with a differing opinion must be wrong..lol. In fact, I often approach issues with the consideration that I might be wrong, so I want to weigh what others are saying (especially if they are more mature or wiser in that area than myself).

I also wanted to say that I really appreciate that you take the time to put thought in your replies, and don't simply rely on rhetoric (or canned responses). So many times (especially in this particulary debate), people will just copy and paste what they've said before, repeat themselves over and over, or just continue to heap Scripture upon Scripture and never really address the comments people have made. Personally, I find this insulting and disrespectul to those you are conversing with. Sometimes I will borrow from a post I have made before or refer to it, but typically I will take alot of time and effort to formulate my responses around a particular individual's post. When these go ignored, or when someone skims it and just moves on to throw out more arguments it gets very frustrating and I lose interest. I usually end up abandoning those types of discussions because they don't end up worth the time and effort. This is why I will not respond in here for days at a time because there will be page after page of people just ignoring one another and simply posting their pre-packaged views on the subject. To me, this does not constitute a "discussion". Anyway, enough rambling, what I'm trying to say is that I appreciate you Butero, and that your efforts do not go unnoticed. There are fewer and fewer people these days (and on these boards) who genuinely use their minds and love God with them. It's nice to converse with someone who seeks to learn and grow and who is willing to offer grace to those whom they disagree with.

Grazi

[spiritman]

Also, I find it funny no one could respond to Kawbod's posts.

Actually A.K., you are mistaken if you thought "no one could respond to Kabowd's posts." I chose not to, with the exception of the comments on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, because I saw no reason to. We have been going around in circles as long as I can remember over this issue with nobody changing their minds. We were arguing this back when you were still Super Jew, and that was a long time ago. Let's take a moment to examine the arguments that were given concerning Hosea, Jonah and Israel.

First there is Hosea. Did he force Gomer to return to him? I would say he did not. What he did was redeem her. It says in Hosea 3:1-3

1 THEN said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a women beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

I have no reason to believe that she didn't want to return willingly, but there was a price to be paid, and she couldn't do it for herself. Hosea had to redeem her. Notice in the next two verses what this sybolizes.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Notice that when speaking of the children of Israel, it says that they shall return and seek the Lord their God. It doesn't say they will return by force. This is all voluntary.

Next let's look to Jonah. While it is true that Jonah rebelled against God and refused to go to Ninevah, God didn't make him do what he asked. Jonah always had a choice. He could die in the belly of the fish that swallowed him, or he could repent, return to God, and carry out his mission. Jonah's repentance can be found in Jonah chapter 2.

Then we come to Israel. God does have a plan for the nation as a whole, but there have been many individuals that have been cut off because of their disobedience to the Lord. In Exodus 32:33, as a result of sin on the part of many of the children of Israel, God says the following:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

This makes it plain that there were people whose name were recorded in the book of life, that had their names removed because they transgressed God's laws.

It is not that there are not answers to all of the arguments made by the OSAS crowd. I haven't found one that cannot be rebutted. The problem is that all we wind up doing is going around in circles. It all comes down to interpretation. Both sides believe the Bible is the Word of God, and look to the same passages, but they interpret things differen't. To try to strengthen the arguments, one side will point to commentaries, or theologeans to try to make it appear their side has the most weight on it's side, but in reality, these arguments prove nothing. The fact that Wesley didn't believe in OSAS and Calvin did, (though Calvin's interpretation and understanding of OSAS was quite differen't than what most are teaching today) means nothing. It all comes down to which side we as individual believers choose to accept as being right. Obviously, you believe the OSAS arguments are correct, and I don't. As I have stated before, I would find it easier to believe in pure Calvanism over what most Baptists teach today, because it makes far more sense.

By the way, though I know we don't agree on this particular issue, I am still glad to see you have decided to return Kabowd. We don't always see eye to eye, but I still consider you to be my sister in the Lord.

Buetro said " To try to strengthen the arguments, one side will point to commentaries, or theologeans to try to make it appear their side has the most weight on it's side, but in

reality, these arguments prove nothing.

spiritman replies: " Brother I totally disagree with you on this one. commentaries are a necessary tool in Bible study." And that's my opinion