Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[RedeemedByHim]

what is the reason for repenting:

Just some comments on the above question and a few others that relate directly to it, such as "Christ has already forgiven all of our sins, past, present and future".

There seems to be a continual thread of assumption in those that hold to some form of eternal security that Christ has forgiven sins. I'm going to assume that it is related to the Atonement, and by virtue of Christ dying upon the Cross forgave man's sins.

First, Christ forgave no man his sins. Not one single sin was forgiven on the Cross. The Cross made the forgiveness of sins possible ONLY because Christ propitiated those sins, the penalty of those sins. If that were actually true, then all of mankind is automatically spiritually saved. That is a whole new form of Universalism.

There is absolutely no forgiveness without repentance. It is stated this way all through the NT. Even in the OT. We have an obligation as believers to be reconciled to God. II Cor 5:20 Also Matt 5:24 relates to the Lord's Prayer and also the unfaithful servant. God holds us accountable also for those who wrong us. We are to forgiven them. We are to forgive them seventy times seven. There is no end to the forgiveness. As we forgive those who treaspass against us, so He will forgive our trespasses.

We MUST keep sin out of our lives. We must work to remain in Him and when we sin, we must seek forgiveness of those sins. Sin separates man from God. That is why daily confession is an absolute must in the life of a believer. There is no such thing as automatic forgiveness. No forgiveness without repentance/confession.

Another area is that of the long list of evildoers who will not enter into heaven. Some assume that believers cannot fall or resort to this kind of evil. The problem with evil is that it starts small, not very beguiling in order to begin to get a beleiver to slip and slide and work him over to the precipice. When a believer begins to rationalize, to make excuses he is well on the way to overt, willingly sinning and just simply overlooking it. This is probably the greatest danger to the view of OSAS. We become hardened to sin. We assume that we are automatically forgiven because we at one time believed. Yet, sin, moves one outside of being IN Christ.

At other places in this thread, comments questioning just how many sins does it take to fall from salvation. The answer is ONE. See the Story of Adam. A believer possesses a fallen human nature, will sin, he must make sure he is aware, even confess sin without knowledge, to make sure that He remains reconciled to God.

This is the anquish of Paul in Rom 7:13-25.

That is the reason for repenting.

I definately agree with you about repentance..i should have made that clear. We cannot access that forgiveness unless we have repented...but once we have repented, we are completely forgiven for our sins. May i add that true repentance is completely turning from that sin and going the opposite direction. Once we submit our lives to God, we no longer want to do the things we used to. Sure, we still sin, but we also keep repenting and getting back up. No one can live a life without any sin at all. Even Apostle Paul talked about that in Romans. We will always struggle with the desires of the flesh. It is what we do with those desires.

[spiritman]

Also, I find it funny no one could respond to Kawbod's posts.

Actually A.K., you are mistaken if you thought "no one could respond to Kabowd's posts." I chose not to, with the exception of the comments on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, because I saw no reason to. We have been going around in circles as long as I can remember over this issue with nobody changing their minds. We were arguing this back when you were still Super Jew, and that was a long time ago. Let's take a moment to examine the arguments that were given concerning Hosea, Jonah and Israel.

First there is Hosea. Did he force Gomer to return to him? I would say he did not. What he did was redeem her. It says in Hosea 3:1-3

1 THEN said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a women beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

I have no reason to believe that she didn't want to return willingly, but there was a price to be paid, and she couldn't do it for herself. Hosea had to redeem her. Notice in the next two verses what this sybolizes.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Notice that when speaking of the children of Israel, it says that they shall return and seek the Lord their God. It doesn't say they will return by force. This is all voluntary.

Next let's look to Jonah. While it is true that Jonah rebelled against God and refused to go to Ninevah, God didn't make him do what he asked. Jonah always had a choice. He could die in the belly of the fish that swallowed him, or he could repent, return to God, and carry out his mission. Jonah's repentance can be found in Jonah chapter 2.

Then we come to Israel. God does have a plan for the nation as a whole, but there have been many individuals that have been cut off because of their disobedience to the Lord. In Exodus 32:33, as a result of sin on the part of many of the children of Israel, God says the following:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

This makes it plain that there were people whose name were recorded in the book of life, that had their names removed because they transgressed God's laws.

It is not that there are not answers to all of the arguments made by the OSAS crowd. I haven't found one that cannot be rebutted. The problem is that all we wind up doing is going around in circles. It all comes down to interpretation. Both sides believe the Bible is the Word of God, and look to the same passages, but they interpret things differen't. To try to strengthen the arguments, one side will point to commentaries, or theologeans to try to make it appear their side has the most weight on it's side, but in reality, these arguments prove nothing. The fact that Wesley didn't believe in OSAS and Calvin did, (though Calvin's interpretation and understanding of OSAS was quite differen't than what most are teaching today) means nothing. It all comes down to which side we as individual believers choose to accept as being right. Obviously, you believe the OSAS arguments are correct, and I don't. As I have stated before, I would find it easier to believe in pure Calvanism over what most Baptists teach today, because it makes far more sense.

By the way, though I know we don't agree on this particular issue, I am still glad to see you have decided to return Kabowd. We don't always see eye to eye, but I still consider you to be my sister in the Lord.

Buetro said " To try to strengthen the arguments, one side will point to commentaries, or theologeans to try to make it appear their side has the most weight on it's side, but in

reality, these arguments prove nothing.

spiritman replies: " Brother I totally disagree with you on this one. commentaries are a necessary tool in Bible study." And that's my opinion

A commentary is nothing more than one man giving an opinion. Differen't commentaries will give you an entirely differen't opinion. What is necessary about a commentary? If you just want opinions on a particular text, save your money and come to Worthy Boards. The people here, including myself, will be glad to tell you what we think a text in the Bible is saying. I am not saying that we will all be right, or that you won't get a lot of differen't viewpoints, but the same thing can be said of commentaries.

Buetro said " A commentary is nothing more than one man giving an opinion. Differen't commentaries will give you an entirely differen't opinion. What is necessary about a commentary? If you just want opinions on a particular text, save your money and come to Worthy Boards. The people here, including myself, will be glad to tell you what we think a text in the Bible is saying. I am not saying that we will all be right, or that you won't get a lot of differen't viewpoints, but the same thing can be said of commentaries

Spiritman replies: My brother Buetro; you and your worthy board friends may be to smart to seek a well educated Holy Ghost filled elders opinion about Bible passages, I on the other hand welcome the wisdom. Some of these men have studied far longer than any of us put together, and I respect that. And I will continue to read commentaries, along with a host of other study tools. Let it be known however, That the Holy spirit is the real teacher here and not men. Let us all seek wise council.

This is getting off the subject, so I won't respond to any more of this subject.

Peace and Love

Spiritman

You are free to read all the commentaries you want. My only point is that you will get very differen't opinions from equally educated individuals. Look at the early reformers for instance. If you were to read the writings of Wesley in relation to the subject of OSAS, he would say it was wrong, and would give interpretations that make it appear to be a lie. On the other hand, if you read the writings of Luther, he will embrace OSAS, and will interpret things in a way that backs up this doctrine. If you get a set of commentaries put out by a Baptist scholar, he will re-affirm OSAS, but if you get commentaries by someone of the Wesleyan faith, he will deny it. This argument has nothing to do with lack of education or amount of education. It has to do with interpretation of the scriptures. In reality, though people like Calvin believed in eternal security, they also believed you were chosen saved or lost before the foundation of the earth, so when modern Baptists and OSAS believers point to him as someone who shared their beliefs, that is not so. True Calvanism makes far more sense than does today's OSAS doctrine, or what is called perseverance of the saints. According to Calvin, they persevered because they had no choice. They were created good. On the other hand, others did evil because they were created to be vessels of dishonour.

Brother Buetro said : You are free to read all the commentaries you want. My only point is that you will get very differen't opinions from equally educated individuals. Look at the early reformers for instance. If you were to read the writings of Wesley in relation to the subject of OSAS, he would say it was wrong, and would give interpretations that make it appear to be a lie. On the other hand, if you read the writings of Luther, he will embrace OSAS, and will interpret things in a way that backs up this doctrine. If you get a set of commentaries put out by a Baptist scholar, he will re-affirm OSAS, but if you get commentaries by someone of the Wesleyan faith, he will deny it. This argument has nothing to do with lack of education or amount of education. It has to do with interpretation of the scriptures. In reality, though people like Calvin believed in eternal security, they also believed you were chosen saved or lost before the foundation of the earth, so when modern Baptists and OSAS believers point to him as someone who shared their beliefs, that is not so. True Calvanism makes far more sense than does today's OSAS doctrine, or what is called perseverance of the saints. According to Calvin, they persevered because they had no choice. They were created good. On the other hand, others did evil because they were created to be vessels of dishonour.

Spiritman responded: Brother Buetro, I do declare, I think you have tempted me to respond to this subject again and I have fallen for it. Yes; there are different commentators out there that hold different views; just like there are different denomnations that hold different views, I guess with this logic, maybe we all ought not never go to church again, after all, these are just men up there behind the pit, and sometimes they just give us their opinions. And you want me to trust everyone at worthy boards, after all there are alot of us here that have different views right?.

Well first off when going to Church, or listening to someone on worthy boards, or reading a commentary, or a devotional or what ever, everyone that does these things, needs to search the scriptures to see if what these people are saying is true, I guess that's the trick Uh?. Then when you find a good pastor, commentator, devotional, or worthyboard people, you stick with em. not to hard right?.

Anyway; just as some of the pastors are inspired by the Holy Spirit, So are some of the commentators, and people that do devotionals, oh yes and even some of us here at worthyboards. The truth is there's a lot of interesting background information that you can get with these commentaries, I recommend them to anyone who would like to get that extra special study.

Have a good day brother Buetro

Love and Peace Spiritman.

[spiritman]

OK Spiritman. I wasn't trying to make you reply again to something you didn't want to. I was simply pointing out why I don't use commentaries. In addition, I wasn't saying the people here are more knowledgable or trustworthy than those writing commentaries. I was just saying that I put as much value in their views as I do in commentaries, because what I am getting when I read the posts here are the interpretations and opinions of other Christians. That is all I will get from a commentary. I have found that the only perfect source of information is the Bible itself, and Jesus gave us the Holy Ghost to be our teacher and guide. I have no problem with reading extra-Biblical materials and then seeing if they match up with the Bible.

That wasn't my point to begin with. What I was saying is that there are some that will use a particular commentary to back up their view, and then say something like, "See, this is what this respected commentary writer says about the meaning of that scripture, so it must be right." In reality, the man who wrote the commentary is a human being, and makes mistakes. In addition, you could just as easily find someone else in another commentary that will give a differen't interpretation. That is why I am not impressed with those arguments.

We are in a debate over an issue that will never be resolved till Jesus comes back and sets us straight. The differences are not based on one person who believes the Bible and one who doesn't. They are based on two differen't interpretations of what the same scriptures mean. One person reads the Bible and comes away believing that everyone who has been saved is saved eternally, regardless of what they do. Another person reads the Bible and comes away believing that if you do certain things after being saved, you can lose your salvation. I have discovered that those on both sides of the fence don't even fully agree on how this works. Let me give you a few of the views I have come across.

1. The belief that Calvin had that we were created to be saved or lost from the foundation of the world. That means if you are a Christian, it was not because of anything you did. God created you in a way where you would make a decision to serve him, no choice of your own. If you did make a prayer of confession, it was because you were programmed to do so. If you rejected Christ, or perhaps served him for a while and fell away, it was because you were programmed to behave that way and be a castaway. This is the doctrine that most Baptist trace their roots back to, but most have come up with a modified version of Calvanism, which I will get to next. The only church I know of that holds to the original doctrine of Calvin today is the Primitive Baptist Church.

2. The belief that we have a choice to be saved or lost. The belief that God desires everyone to choose to serve him, but won't make us do so. Those who hold to this belief state that we have a free will in the matter until we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. From that day forward, our free will in the matter of salvation is taken from us. They believe that God can no longer see anything sinful they do, as all sins are under the blood. They are now forced to remain a Christian, whether they wish to be saved or not. We could go out and commit any transgression, or even renounce Christianity, and would still be saved. This is the view of most Baptists today, and some independent churches that hold to this modified view of Calvanism.

3. The belief that we have a free will to accept or reject Christ. They belief that God desires everyone to serve him, but won't make us do so. Those who hold this belief feel we have a free will in the matter until we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. From that day forward, we will remain a Christian regardless of the sins we commit, unless we outright renounce Christianity. They believe this is the only way to lose salvation.

4. The belief that we have a free will to accept or reject Christ. They believe that God desires to save everyone, but some will reject him. They hold to the belief that once we get saved we remain that way, until we come to a place where we have either rejected the Lord outright or have gone back into the world of sin and after continually refusing to repent, are eventually cut off. Those who hold to this belief don't know when someone is going to be cut off. They believe it is up to God, but believe there will come a time where you will eventually lose your salvation.

5. The belief that we have a free will to accept or reject Christ. The belief that God desires to save everyone, but some will reject him. The belief that once we get saved, all past sins are forgiven and under the blood, as well as all present and future sins that were done unintentionally or unknowingly. The belief that wilful acts of rebellion are not automatically covered, and will cost us our salvation unless we repent. This means that the cut off point is when a Christian chooses to commit a wilful transgression like committing adultery, robbing a bank, murdering someone, etc. Once there is spot on their once clean garment, they are lost, and the only means of restoration is to repent.

There may be other variations on this subject, but these are the ones I am aware of so far. To me, the only ones that make any sense are the 1st and 5th. The ones in between don't seem to fit what I have found written in the Bible. I believe the last option to be the correct one, but have stated that I am willing to consider Calvan's original doctrine, because I can see how it makes sense in many ways, and answers a lot of questions that are unexplained by those who hold to the modern OSAS teachings. The reason I have trouble with the original doctrine of Calvin, is it would seem to devalue the work of evangelists and missionaires, because those who are supposed to be saved would come to Christ anyway. Those who hold to Calvanism state that God created the evangelists and missionaries as the means of reaching those chosen to be saved. I can't prove this is wrong, but it doesn't seem like a reasonable answer to me. That doesn't necessarily mean it isn't right, because God's ways are higher than my ability to reason. I am just not convinced at this time.

Hi brother butero,

I have to break it down to just one, that's number 5; the reason is the greek word for predestined in ephesians 1:4-5,and

1:11 is Prognosis, and its definition is : Foreknowledge, Foreknowledge is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings promises, and predictions. God's foreknowledge involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will, He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes: see: Galatians 1:16; Ephesians 1:5, 1:11. In other words, God has knowledge of who will recieve Him or reject Him in advance because He knows the beginning and the end. But, He does not "predestine" us for heaven or hell.

may the Lord Grant you Peace and Joy

Spiritman

[Thaddaeus]

Butero,

Number 5 is almost correct. Or what you failed to add is #6. We enter into the Kingdom by faith. That faith places us In Christ through participation in His Death and Resurrection, baptism. Once we have entered we are saved through that same faith. It is a continuous working out of our salvation. It is being conformed to His Image, working obediently, willfully with Him in this world as co-workers. Because we live in this world with our fallen natures, we are sorely tempted to go astray. We continually put ourselves ahead of Christ. We do not deny ourselves completely all the time. When we do not, we need to confess those shortcomings. There is no default forgiveness, but only forgiveness upon sincere repentance and confession. We sin every day and each day we need to seek renewal and continuance in that journey to recieve the promise of faithfulness.

Christianity is a life to live, not to sit passively by and think that God will do the work for you, work that He created specifically for you to do.

He that loses His life for my sake shall find it. We need to get going to do HIS will. He wills that WE do His Will.

[spiritman]

Well, this topic is slowing down again, so I will politely bow out. I think this has been very informative, kinda went in circles sometimes, but it was a still informative.

[eric]

Every thread that gets people diving into the word has to be a good exercise. Keeps everyone on their toes, as long as it can be done with civility and humbleness.

[spiritman]

Butero,

Number 5 is almost correct. Or what you failed to add is #6. We enter into the Kingdom by faith. That faith places us In Christ through participation in His Death and Resurrection, baptism. Once we have entered we are saved through that same faith. It is a continuous working out of our salvation. It is being conformed to His Image, working obediently, willfully with Him in this world as co-workers. Because we live in this world with our fallen natures, we are sorely tempted to go astray. We continually put ourselves ahead of Christ. We do not deny ourselves completely all the time. When we do not, we need to confess those shortcomings. There is no default forgiveness, but only forgiveness upon sincere repentance and confession. We sin every day and each day we need to seek renewal and continuance in that journey to recieve the promise of faithfulness.

Christianity is a life to live, not to sit passively by and think that God will do the work for you, work that He created specifically for you to do.

He that loses His life for my sake shall find it. We need to get going to do HIS will. He wills that WE do His Will.

Thaddeus said " Number 5 is almost correct. Or what you failed to add is #6.

Spiritman replies: Your statement is incorrect. What you should have said was " number 5 is correct but I'd like to add this to it". That is unless you can point out any problems with number 5 as it is currently, without adding anything to it. As far as Add ons we could do that all day long, after all the Bible is a big book.

[TomPJr]

Tom, what does it mean to speak against the Holy Spirit?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If you are saying that the conviction from the Holy Spirit is not real, or you make excuses, you are speaking against the Holy Spirits work. You are taking it upon yourself to decide what's right or wrong instead of really listening to the Holy Spirit. Think about it....To blaspheme God, you claim the power of God for yourself....If you are choosing to rebel against the Holy Spirit and rely on your own interpretation and understanding of what is good and acceptable, then you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming those attributes that are possessed by the Holy Spirit.

and...

Salvation comes by faithe, confession, asking forgiveness, and repentence.....if you continually ignore the Holy Spirit you become in danger of hardening your heart and deafening you ears to the very one who convicts you to do those things.

Then you will no longer be convicted to ask fogiveness or repent. The only unforgiveable sin is the one you fail to ask forgiveness for. That is why we should head the convictions from the Holy Spirit lest we Grieve him away.

That is an interesting response, but it doesn't fit. In the first place, when Jesus spoke of the Pharisees being guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, they were attributing the works of the Spirit to the devil. As such, it is obvious that was their sin, not simple rejection of Christ. You can reject something without being guilty of blasphemy. In reality, most of us didn't get saved the first time we felt conviction. I was under conviction for 6 months before getting saved. In addition, one can reject salvation without speaking against God or his Spirit. I have known people who will not speak against God at all, but won't get saved either. One man I know once said that he believes in the Lord, but doesn't serve him. That is not blasphemy or speaking against. It is simply making a bad choice.

Butero.

Hi. Please read my post again slowly with consideration. then continue with this response.

I think that what you said goes hand in hand with what I said...The pharisees attributed the works of Jesus to the Devil actually. But they did, however, ignore the Holy Spirits convictions, due to their selfish pride, greed, and unwillingness to change. In this sense, because they denied that it was from God, they blasphemed the Holy Spirit which was their only means of being convicted to repent. Remember...the Holy Spirit is here to enlighten us and bring us into the truth, and to convict us of sin. If we deny that it is devine conviction we are denying the Holy Spirit. If we deny that it is from God then it might as well be from Satan. Thus Blasphemy of the HolyGhost. The pharisees were taking upon themselves the authority of the Holy Spirit by claiming that they knew what was true and denying the real truth. They, by their own accord, condemd others....not by true inspiration.

I am interested to hear from you.

With love in Christ.

Tom.

Hello Tom. I guess to get to the bottom of this, we need to look at the scripture where the issue comes up, from Matthew 12:22-32

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Jesus just gets through casting a devil out of a man, and the people begin to marvel. Notice that the Pharisees don't simply reject Jesus as being the Messiah, but they take things a step further and accuse him of using the power of the devil to cast out devils. In reality, it wasn't the power of the devil at all that empowered Jesus, but the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that decended upon him in the form of a dove at his earlier baptism. Let's continue.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Jesus responds to the Pharisees by pointing out that Satan will not cast himself out of someone he is possessing. It makes no logical sense to do so. It would be like someone in the military fighting against his own troops. If someone does this, they will not stand because they are divided. Jesus goes on to make this same point in reference to a kingdom or a house divided. He then mentions the fact that some of their children have been casting out devils, and asks by whose power they are operating?

Verse 28 is very important. In this verse, Jesus tells us where the real power to cast out devils lies. It is not through Beelzebub, but through the Spririt of God. When a person is possessed, the devils inside him are not going to up and leave on their own. It requires one stronger than them to force them to leave. We in our own power are not capable of doing this, but the Spririt of God is. In verse 30, Jesus says that those not for him are against him. The Pharisees who are rejecting Jesus are making themselves his enemy and attempting to keep others from accepting him. He then goes on in verse 31 and 32 to make the following statement.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If we only had verses 31 and 32 to go by, and they were isolated from all other scripture, we could draw any number of conclusions as to their meaning. However, that is not the way they are presented. Jesus is continuing to speak to the event that had just occured, where the Pharisees had said he was casting out devils by "Beelzebub the prince of the devils" in verse 24, and Jesus was setting them straight by saying that it was by the "Spirit of God" he was in actuality casting them out in verse 28. We can see that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was attributing the work of God's Spirit to the devil. Jesus takes things a step further and warns us against speaking against the Holy Ghost at all in verse 32, telling us that this sin will not be forgiven, "neither in this world, neither in the world to come." This sin cannot simply be rejecting salvation or Jesus, because he tells us that "whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him." He makes a distinction between attacking him and attacking the Spirit.

Hi Butero,

I think that we are in more agreement than you think....mybe not, but let me explain more.

You said, "We can see that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was attributing the work of God's Spirit to the devil."

That goes hand in hand with what I was talking about. The Pharissees where denying the power of the Holy Spirit. They accused Jesus of blasphemy(claiming the power of God). If the Pharisees would have repented then they would have been saved, but they let their pride and selfishness harden their hearts and they would not head the warnings from Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Think about this... If it is bad to Just talk bad about the Holy Spirit, how much worse would it be to talk bad about Jesus or the Father. Of the three, the Father has the highest rank. The reason it is so dangerous to deny or blaspheme the Holy Spirit, is because he is the means by which we are convicted of the need to repent and ask forgiveness. The bible says that we must ask forgiveness and repent, so if we grieve away the Holy Spirit, we will no longer have the conviction to ask forgiveness or repent.

When Jesus was accused of blasphemy it was because he claimed the authority or power of God...

When we deny the convictions From the Holy Spirit, we are taking him from his position and putting ourselves in his place....just like Jesus putting himself in the place of God. The only difference is that jesus had the right to. If we continue to put ourselves in his place too long, there will come a point when probation closes, and like I sai above, we will grieve away the Holy Spirit and he will no longer convict our hearts, which leads us to ask forgiveness and repent.

All other sins can be forgiven because we can ask forgiveness and repent....once you grieve away the Holy Spirit, you will no longer feel the need to do so.

The only sin that is not forgiven is the one you don't ask forgiveness for and repent of.

Tom

I don't totally dissagree with what you said. If the Holy Spirit leaves you, you will not be convicted and therefore won't repent and be forgiven. There is no doubt that is true. In the same fashion, I don't believe that a person who sincerely wants forgiveness for sins could have been guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because it is the Spirit that brings conviction in the first place. I guess the only thing I dissagree with you on is exactly what the Pharisees sin was. I don't believe it was rejecting Jesus. I believe it was attributing the work of the Spirit to the devil. The Spirit was the power that was casting out devils, and they claimed it was Beelezebub, prince of the devils that was doing it. To simply reject salvation is not blasphemy. In addition, while you may feel like it is as bad or worse to blaspheme the Father or Jesus, that is the exact opposite of what Jesus said. He said if we blaspheme him or the Father, we can still be granted forgiveness, but if we blaspheme or speak a word against the Holy Ghost, there will be no forgiveness granted. I don't fully understand why this is the greater offense, but it clearly is.

hello again,

I'm glad to see we are in agreement....

however, I didn't say that they were damned because they rejected Jesus...I do think that whether you say they attributed the work of the Spirit to the devil or they rejected the Holy Spirit, are one in the same.

If they hadn't rejected the Holy Spirit working in their life, they wouldn't have attributed it to Satan.

also, you said "He said if we blaspheme him or the Father, we can still be granted forgiveness, but if we blaspheme or speak a word against the Holy Ghost, there will be no forgiveness granted. I don't fully understand why this is the greater offense, but it clearly is." I agree 100%. I just think it goes to reason that this is because of what we already agreed on....if the Holy Spirit is ignored too long we can harden our hearts not to hear the conviction and need for confession and repentence.

One more thought...

I think that a person may literally attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan, but later learn the truth, be convicted, and repent. Some peoples minds are full of so much garbage from our society, and may have a warped sense of truth, and therefore may attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. This isn't the unparidinable sin yet because they can still be reached.

It is the continual willfull disregaurd of the convictions from the Holy Spirit which will ultimately lead to the Unpardinable sin, because they will get to the point where they will not ask for forgiveness or even think about repentence. If a person is feeling conviction then they probably haven't committed it.

Tom

[TomPJr]

what is the reason for repenting:

Just some comments on the above question and a few others that relate directly to it, such as "Christ has already forgiven all of our sins, past, present and future".

There seems to be a continual thread of assumption in those that hold to some form of eternal security that Christ has forgiven sins. I'm going to assume that it is related to the Atonement, and by virtue of Christ dying upon the Cross forgave man's sins.

First, Christ forgave no man his sins. Not one single sin was forgiven on the Cross. The Cross made the forgiveness of sins possible ONLY because Christ propitiated those sins, the penalty of those sins. If that were actually true, then all of mankind is automatically spiritually saved. That is a whole new form of Universalism.

There is absolutely no forgiveness without repentance. It is stated this way all through the NT. Even in the OT. We have an obligation as believers to be reconciled to God. II Cor 5:20 Also Matt 5:24 relates to the Lord's Prayer and also the unfaithful servant. God holds us accountable also for those who wrong us. We are to forgiven them. We are to forgive them seventy times seven. There is no end to the forgiveness. As we forgive those who treaspass against us, so He will forgive our trespasses.

We MUST keep sin out of our lives. We must work to remain in Him and when we sin, we must seek forgiveness of those sins. Sin separates man from God. That is why daily confession is an absolute must in the life of a believer. There is no such thing as automatic forgiveness. No forgiveness without repentance/confession.

Another area is that of the long list of evildoers who will not enter into heaven. Some assume that believers cannot fall or resort to this kind of evil. The problem with evil is that it starts small, not very beguiling in order to begin to get a beleiver to slip and slide and work him over to the precipice. When a believer begins to rationalize, to make excuses he is well on the way to overt, willingly sinning and just simply overlooking it. This is probably the greatest danger to the view of OSAS. We become hardened to sin. We assume that we are automatically forgiven because we at one time believed. Yet, sin, moves one outside of being IN Christ.

At other places in this thread, comments questioning just how many sins does it take to fall from salvation. The answer is ONE. See the Story of Adam. A believer possesses a fallen human nature, will sin, he must make sure he is aware, even confess sin without knowledge, to make sure that He remains reconciled to God.

This is the anquish of Paul in Rom 7:13-25.

That is the reason for repenting.

Satan is very good a getting people to keep their sins...

Sin keeps us from God and that is what Satan wants. How clever....he tells people to believe in God, tells them to go to church, and tells them that God is so merciful that we don't really have to repent.

(really not that funny)

[Thaddaeus]

TomPJr,

(really not that funny)

But the Truth. That is what is so tragic.