Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[TomPJr]

Seems that people in this thread are concentrating on committing sin at the last possible moment and formulating some sort of a doctrine out of the conclusion. What about having your conscience seared with a hot iron? Paul addresses this topic in his letters. Or the denying of God to follow a more acceptable religious system, which Paul discusses in the 10th chapter of Hebrews? Where is the debate concerning one deliberately leaving God to follow something that is more convenient, as happened with the Christians in the first and second centuries who denounced God rather than face certain death at the hands of the Romans. In fact this practice extended into the 4th century and was a source of much debate within the early church.

Seems like we have centered our debate on when we sin prior to our death rather than on whether we are still following Jesus as Scripture outlines. If you are worried about loosing your salvation, you are probably just fine in that department. Those who do not worry about this subject and live a life devoted to sin are the ones who should worry the most. However, since their consciences have been seared over with a hot iron, they are unable to feel anything and go merrily on their way oblivious to anything remotely spiritual.

Phil.2:12

You are absolutely correct in this assessment. Losing one's salvation is NOT about one single sin nor a sin just before one dies. It is about living Christianity with unrepented sin.

If our lives are completely devoted to do the will of God and obeying his commandments through faith then we will have a home in heaven, but if we live our "Christian" lives still filled with sins that we refuse to repent of or don't think we have to repent of them then we are not fit for heaven.

What I have been trying to get people to realize is that OSAS doctrine has led a great deal of the religious community thinking that they can have Christ and their sins too. They are taught to accept Jesus in their hearts as their lord and personal savior and they are saved without having to do anything else because did everything on the cross for us. Anything outside of that we are doing of ourselves.

If all of this we true then we would have no need of a bible which contains 26 books of the New Testament.

We know that sin is a transgression of the law. For us it is the Law Of Christ. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory". If we all have sinned then there is a law that we transgressed. Without a law there is no sin. Even after we are born again we are commanded to follow that law. If we don't then we sin. The will of God is that we resist temptations so that we don't sins. That is what 1 John is referring to. As Christians we live a life of sins and we choose not to sin.

As Christians we still have the ability to sin, but the point is what are we going to do about it. Are we going to repent of it, ask forgiveness, and strive harder not to give in again or are we just going to let it God thinking that we don't need to repent because Christ did everything for us on the cross?

One thing I have learned in all my years of talking to denominational people is that even though they believe in hell they don't think anybody is going there. They think that God is so loving that they can't understand why he would condemn anybody to hell.

Hebrews 10:28-31 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Look at this example here. We see that under Moses' law that those who despised the law dies without mercy. Then it is saying that those who have trodden under foot the Son of God will have a much sorer punishment. This is speaking of those who were sanctified. We know that only Christians today are sanctified under Christ.

It goes on to say that the Lord will judge his people (Christians) and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now, if Christ did everything for us on the cross and all of our sins are automatically forgiven past, present, and future, Christians cannot sin then why would God need to judge his own people?

These verses and other like it are telling us that even though we have been sanctified we can still lose what was promised to us if we choose to keep our lives filled with sin. This doesn't mean they were never saved because we can see here that it is speaking of those who have been sanctified.

right on brother!

Jesus wants to cleanse us, but we must allow him.

He will not force it upon us...

everytime we get dirty or jump in the mud puddle of sin, we must ask for forgiveness(cleansing), and try to repent(keep from stumbling back into the puddle).

If we have no desire or will to stay out of the mud and just stay in the mud then it is impossible to be cleaned. Right? I imagine trying to clean a baby that is in a mud puddle. No matter how much you clean, the baby remains dirty because he is continually remaining in the dirt.

Yes, Jesus has the power to pull us(the baby) out of the mud, and does so sometimes through his Holy Spirit, but because of our free will we can end up right back in the mud puddle. He does not force us, only coviction through his Holy Spirit...(our conscience?). Sad but true, we have the power to deny, or ignore the Holy Spirits convictions. If we do this to long, our conscience may be seered and our hearts hardened so much that we won't even hear the still small voice pleading with us to repent. If this happens we have committed the unpardonable sin because we will not be convicted or feel the need to repent or ask forgiveness. The only sin that will be unforgiven is the one that we don't ask forgiveness for. I'm not talking about something that we didn't know was sin, I'm talking about something that we were once convicted of and through ignoring,(or blaspheming) the Holy Spirit, we no longer are convicted of and will not repent. To blaspheme God was to take on the attributes or authority of God....We blaspheme the Holy Spirit when we take over the authority of the Holy Spirit in our lives and decide for ourselves what is right and wrong.

If we continue to wallow in the mud with no desire to stay clean, our probation may run out and Jesus will say let those who are righteous be righteous still and let those who are wicked be wicked still...let those who are clean be clean still and those who are filthy be filthy still.

That is when he removes his Holy Spirit just before he comes back.

Peace Brother,

P.s. this message is mainly for others who do not understand.

A Godly warning for those who feel they don't need to be warned.

[Guest Greg Davies]

Bless God! He is so mercifull and gracious, full of compassion, not willing that any should perish. If we can lose our salvation, what do we mean by salvation? Are we talking about the Gift of God that we never earned in the first place? If obeying the Law couldn't save us, how does sinning cause us to lose what we received by grace? I know the scriptures that are used to support the premise of losing your salvation and I beleive them. But what are we really losing by unrepentant sin or "dead works"? I Cor 3 is a wonderful explanation where all these seeming contradictory verses are hormonized. We are born of incorruptible seed by the word of God which endures forever. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit and Titus 3:5 explaines the process. Thank God for the Corinthian man who committed incest. Because of him we know that even though we might sin grievously and be thrown out of the church and handed over to satan (ouch), our spirit is still saved. Oh glory to God! Yes there are consequences to sin, we do reap what we sow. There are eternal consequences to how we build our habitation for God, good or bad. So when we say salvation, what do we mean? There is so much more beyond the new spirit we receive at the Cross. That we can never lose. It is incorruptible. Here's a thought, what does it mean to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

[TomPJr]

Bless God! He is so mercifull and gracious, full of compassion, not willing that any should perish. If we can lose our salvation, what do we mean by salvation? Are we talking about the Gift of God that we never earned in the first place? If obeying the Law couldn't save us, how does sinning cause us to lose what we received by grace? I know the scriptures that are used to support the premise of losing your salvation and I beleive them. But what are we really losing by unrepentant sin or "dead works"? I Cor 3 is a wonderful explanation where all these seeming contradictory verses are hormonized. We are born of incorruptible seed by the word of God which endures forever. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit and Titus 3:5 explaines the process. Thank God for the Corinthian man who committed incest. Because of him we know that even though we might sin grievously and be thrown out of the church and handed over to satan (ouch), our spirit is still saved. Oh glory to God! Yes there are consequences to sin, we do reap what we sow. There are eternal consequences to how we build our habitation for God, good or bad. So when we say salvation, what do we mean? There is so much more beyond the new spirit we receive at the Cross. That we can never lose. It is incorruptible. Here's a thought, what does it mean to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

Dear Greg,

What you stated is very intuitive, but I believe lacks some understanding...

Please hear me out before you get too defensive.

We do recieve salvation by grace, but do most really understand what that means?

That doesn't mean that we cannot fall from grace.

Waht it means is that we are all deserving of the death penalty (eternal death), but by the grace of God he has given us a way out...

the Grace does not give us a free ticket to live however we want to....it gives us the ability to reprove ourselves, and repent, and recieve the gift of eternal life.

If I hand you a gift, in order for you to benefit from it you must reach out and take hold of it and utilize it. The point being, that in order for you to benefit from the gift there are works that must be done. the works aren't to earn the gift, but rather to utilize it!

Noone can earn salvation... but they must be willing to repent. If not...then they forfiet thier salvation.

If a family member does something harmful towards you, would you forgive them? If they stole from you would you forgive them?

Most Christians would forgive if they belived that the person was repentant. However, if the person was unrepentant and kept taking advantage of you, and kept stealing, no matter how much love you showed, how could you continually forgive them, especially if they discontinued to even ask for forgiveness? There is a shut-off point.

[Thaddaeus]

To proponents of OSAS,

There are several statements that are often made by proponents which are not even relevant to the issue. Permit me to point some out. These all have been pointed out before but in the last several posts these phrases have come up again.

Now, if Christ did everything for us on the cross and all of our sins are automatically forgiven past, present, and future, Christians cannot sin then why would God need to judge his own people?

two problems with this concept. First, Christ died for mankind. He redeemed mankind from the fall. If all sins were forgiven, automatically, due to the Cross, then all of mankind is also automatically saved. There would be absolutely no one is hell.

Also, what Christ accomplished on the Cross has nothing directly to do with the saving our each of our souls. What Christ did, was correct the fall, SO THAT MAN COULD BE IN UNION WITH GOD AGAIN. Man lost the privilege, the purpose of his existance due to the fall. Correcting the fall, man is now back on track. We can freely choose who we will serve, love and obey.

Noone can earn salvation... but they must be willing to repent. If not...then they forfiet thier salvation.

Often, one hears that we cannot save ourselves, or our works won't save us. The problem with that understanding is that in the Bible this all refers to what Christ did for us. That is why we cannot do it, and if we even could, it would not matter. Man just cannot give himself life, nor propitiate his own sins. Explain to me how that can be done.

However, the saving of our souls has always been a synergistic work between man and God. Read the story of Adam in the Garden. He was working with God. He was created to be the prophet, priest and king of the created order.

There is no merit here, but obligation. It is the reason we were created, to perform all of these good works. We were created to work with God in this created order to bring ourselves and all things back to Him as a living sacrifice. That takes work, a lot of effort and work. It is on that work that we will be judged.

Thank God for the Corinthian man who committed incest. Because of him we know that even though we might sin grievously and be thrown out of the church and handed over to satan (ouch), our spirit is still saved.

It might be a good pyschological feeling that this could happen. We all would get into heaven as well. When Paul was excommunicating this man, and handing him over to Satan, is not the saving of this mans soul. Paul is giving him over to Satan, so that this man can sink as far as he can go, then he might realize his sore predicament and repent, THUS HIS SOUL SHALL BE SAVED. You cannot be saved while in sin. They are opposites, mutually exclusive concepts.

[larryt]

I want to say something though...LarryT seems to think that once saved you can not commit sin... I would like to know if he believes he is saved, and if so...does he ever sin? (rhetorical question).

If you cannot lose your salvation in this life then there would be no need to warn and warn and warn believers to repent and keep on track. It seems pretty simple to me.

There is an exception to the rule though.... I do believe in OSAS when Jesus comes back. If you remember in prophesy it is foretold that there is a probationary period and at the end of it God will say let the wicked be wicked still and let the righteous be rightous still. Only then does OSAS truly apply. Untill then we must gaurd our Souls from the Devil who wishes to get us of the narrow road to heaven and lead us down the wide easy road to the lake of fire. You nor I know what tomorrow brings or if we are truly saved. Many people like to believe that they are saved and cannot fall away, and thus become extremely vulnerable to temptation, because they don't fear condemnation. The only thing that we know for sure is that God wants to save us. We have certain instructions to follow in order to gain salvation (ask forgiveness, repent).

Jesus gives us a free gift (pardon, salvation)

We must accept it (ask forgiveness, repent)

Hi TomP,

Have you read 1John 3:9? I have asked for anyone from the LOS side to reconcile it with their theology. How would you explain that verse in light of your understanding?

Your statement about how you think I take that verse shows that you probably don't understand the New Birth. 1John 3:9 is talking about the New Birth, the New Man, the New Creation in Christ Jesus.

By the way consensus will never change the Truth of God's Word. Theology is not a matter of how many people agree as to what it is but what the Holy Spirit shows is the truth.

I am sorry that you do not know that you are truly saved for in the same 1John, John mentions many time that we KNOW, and that we might know. I do know. And by Gain do you mean earn? Can you add anything to the work of Christ?

LT

[Guest Greg Davies]

Wow this is fun. Love all you brothers, but I still like what I Cor 3:10-15 says. I believe the building materials Paul describes are of two categories. One abides the fire, good works and one is destroyed in the fire, dead works or things done without faith, in other words sin. (Oh, by the way, Who's the Consuming Fire?) Heb 9:5 exorts us to be purged from dead works. After we are saved and the foundation is laid, we have an opportunity to build a habitation for God. How we build has rewards and/or losses.

None can say we are without sin unless we are deceived, I Jn 1:8. But if we press on to the prize and work out our salvation making our best effort to walk in the newness of life, we can overcome sin and be conformed to the image of Christ and Se Him as he is because we will be like Him. Glory to God! What a hope we have in Jesus.

So, I'm curious as to what scriptures you are using to support the lose your salvation idea.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Greg Davies

[Thaddaeus]

Greg Davies,

So, I'm curious as to what scriptures you are using to support the lose your salvation idea.

Because you speak from a past tense use of "saved" you assume that it is final. However, that is not what the Bible teaches relative to your walk, your union with God, being IN Christ. When we believe, repent, are baptised, we recieve the Holy Spirit, which is also known as entering the Kingdom of God. We may possess that salvation, but we are now on a journey to actually take full inherited possession at the end. I Pet 1:4-5 clarifies this very well. Our inheritance is being held for us, and we are being held by the power of God THROUGH OUR FAITH.

We are justified by faith, which is simply entrance into the Kingdom. We are saved through faith. We must keep the faith. We must endure to the end. It is all about faith. Salvation is faith, abiding faith. Thus the entire NT preaches ad nausem about the Christian to make sure they remain IN Christ which also means to remain faithful. We cannot be saved, cannot inherit the promise at the end, IF WE BECOME UNFAITHFUL.

Much earlier in this post I posted several texts, about 10 or 12 that explicity showed that faith must be kept. Losing faith is losing salvation. Why would that not be logical, when we are saved through faith. It does not ever say we are saved through unfaithfulness. There are possibly in the range of 200 specific texts in the NT that clearly portray that precept. I can post more for you if you desire.

Faith is a free motion of man. He can accept Christ, he can reject Him. He can do this back and forth many times in his life possibly. God does not compel us to love Him. He works in us that we believe. But He does not actually believe for us. He does not impose His will upon us. He gives us His revelation, outlining to man, what He expects of us, and then we better get to it. If we don't, He has also given us the alternative.

Here are some more texts that speak to the faith issue, we are saved through faith. I have added some commentary.

1 Timothy 3:6 - not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Explanation: The word for novice also means newly planted, a new convert, neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian). So what this is saying is that a new convert can become puffed up with pride if they are put into the position of an elder at a church; then that pride makes them fall. The word for fall means to fall into, to fall among robbers, fall into one's power. So this is action of a real Christian who has been out of the devil's power, but then falls back into it because of puffed up pride. What it is that there is a possibility of falling into is the same condemnation (judgement, damnation) as the devil. (this may be analogous to the briars of the parable of the sower. A new christian who is not mature enough to handle this kind of responsibility and he lets it inflate his ego and puts himself above God and others, thus falling from grace)

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Explanation: Paul sounds like he's really trying to get the point accross by stating "the Spirit expressly says." With this kind of language, we better pay attention. The word for giving heed also means to turn the mind to, give attention to, to apply one's self to, to devote thought and effort to. So don't give much attention to people who tell you that you can not lose your salvation. The word for depart also means to desert, to fall away, become faithless, to withdraw one's self from. Either way that you look at it they stop having faith.

1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. Explanation: The word for cast off also means despise, reject, bring to nothing, to do away with, to set aside, disregard, nullify, make void. Clearly, their faith is no good anymore, and they will be condemned at the last day. These people become spiritually dead.

I Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses" Explanation: Does anyone see any security about a single moment in time when one might have believed. We need to fight, lay hold, and profess before many witnesses. That is a lot to do in a few seconds of belief.

If you need more I have plenty more.

[Massorite]

Massorite,

A very good modern day, real example of the principle of faith and being faithful to the end. I shall add that to my list. The best one I have used in the past is Joseph Stalin. Born to Orthodox parents, raised Othodox, was baptised, chrismated, served as an alter boy until he went off to college. There he met a man by the name of Marx and his life changed drastically. By all accounts of what we can know he probably did not repent. But who knows? We are not the judge.

Good point and thank you. I didn't know Stalin was an alter boy and all. Makes one wonder how it could have happened. One thing we know for sure is that the path he choose wasn't chosen out of ignorance. He already knew what the other side had to offer before he turned his back on God.

[Guest Greg Davies]

O.K. I see where you are coming from. It's the all or nothing salvation. Kind of like the game show where you accumilate prizes until you give a wrong answer and then you lose everything. I don't have time right now to respond the way I'd like. Look for a more complete response next week . I will give you II Cor. 1:10 for now. The word "deliver" here is also translated "save". God Bless, Greg.

Greg Davies,

So, I'm curious as to what scriptures you are using to support the lose your salvation idea.

Because you speak from a past tense use of "saved" you assume that it is final. However, that is not what the Bible teaches relative to your walk, your union with God, being IN Christ. When we believe, repent, are baptised, we recieve the Holy Spirit, which is also known as entering the Kingdom of God. We may possess that salvation, but we are now on a journey to actually take full inherited possession at the end. I Pet 1:4-5 clarifies this very well. Our inheritance is being held for us, and we are being held by the power of God THROUGH OUR FAITH.

We are justified by faith, which is simply entrance into the Kingdom. We are saved through faith. We must keep the faith. We must endure to the end. It is all about faith. Salvation is faith, abiding faith. Thus the entire NT preaches ad nausem about the Christian to make sure they remain IN Christ which also means to remain faithful. We cannot be saved, cannot inherit the promise at the end, IF WE BECOME UNFAITHFUL.

Much earlier in this post I posted several texts, about 10 or 12 that explicity showed that faith must be kept. Losing faith is losing salvation. Why would that not be logical, when we are saved through faith. It does not ever say we are saved through unfaithfulness. There are possibly in the range of 200 specific texts in the NT that clearly portray that precept. I can post more for you if you desire.

Faith is a free motion of man. He can accept Christ, he can reject Him. He can do this back and forth many times in his life possibly. God does not compel us to love Him. He works in us that we believe. But He does not actually believe for us. He does not impose His will upon us. He gives us His revelation, outlining to man, what He expects of us, and then we better get to it. If we don't, He has also given us the alternative.

Here are some more texts that speak to the faith issue, we are saved through faith. I have added some commentary.

1 Timothy 3:6 - not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Explanation: The word for novice also means newly planted, a new convert, neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian). So what this is saying is that a new convert can become puffed up with pride if they are put into the position of an elder at a church; then that pride makes them fall. The word for fall means to fall into, to fall among robbers, fall into one's power. So this is action of a real Christian who has been out of the devil's power, but then falls back into it because of puffed up pride. What it is that there is a possibility of falling into is the same condemnation (judgement, damnation) as the devil. (this may be analogous to the briars of the parable of the sower. A new christian who is not mature enough to handle this kind of responsibility and he lets it inflate his ego and puts himself above God and others, thus falling from grace)

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Explanation: Paul sounds like he's really trying to get the point accross by stating "the Spirit expressly says." With this kind of language, we better pay attention. The word for giving heed also means to turn the mind to, give attention to, to apply one's self to, to devote thought and effort to. So don't give much attention to people who tell you that you can not lose your salvation. The word for depart also means to desert, to fall away, become faithless, to withdraw one's self from. Either way that you look at it they stop having faith.

1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. Explanation: The word for cast off also means despise, reject, bring to nothing, to do away with, to set aside, disregard, nullify, make void. Clearly, their faith is no good anymore, and they will be condemned at the last day. These people become spiritually dead.

I Timothy 6:12 - "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses" Explanation: Does anyone see any security about a single moment in time when one might have believed. We need to fight, lay hold, and profess before many witnesses. That is a lot to do in a few seconds of belief.

If you need more I have plenty more.

[ttuna]

Every human was born from fleshly parents, the result a fleshly life.

When a person becomes Born-again, the Father/Son/Holy Spirit give us a spiritual life.

The first birth being fleshly will result in a physical death, because of sin death came also.

The second birth is spiritual and will last forever, for we have been born of God.

Once you are born-again, you can not be unborn.

John 3:16 says "Eternal life"..................not "temporary life" based on what we do. It is what "Christ" did for us!