Copper Scroll Posted November 7, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2006 This is your chance for the nonbelievers to state what you object to about Christianity Here are at least some of my objections, in no particular order. 1) All who don't believe or damned. This includes all people who have never even heard of Jesus. All people living in most areas of the world before, say, the 1500's. All non-Jews predating Christ. All people growing up predisposed to a different religion because that is the religion of their family, community or nation. If God really wants everybody and Christianity is "The One True Way", then it would have to be equally accessible to ALL people. Unless God doesn't actually want everybody, which is the idea behind Calvinism. 2) God can't tolerate sin, but he set up the system in the first place. It makes no sense to say God created us with choice, because he doesn't want robotic servants with no choice, yet He can't tolerate the sin of even the tiniest sinful choice. So, he has to arrange a murder to "pay" for our sins? How does the death of an innocent "pay" for the sins of others, anyway? And if it was death He needed, why not just have Jesus die in his sleep? Does the Bible say, "The wages of sin is torture?" No. So, why is torture necessary? Besides, if sin was impuned to everyone by Adam's choice (another non-sensical idea), why wasn't salvation impuned to everybody by Jesus' death? Everyone is stained by Adam, whether they have heard about it or not, but people only get the pardon of Jesus, if they know and embrace this idea. 3) Punishment in hell for eternity is pointless, unless God enjoys inflicting suffering. If a parent punishes their child, why do they do that? Because they hope to impress upon the child that a bad result will come from this choice, but hell is not like that. Even if tortured in hell for 10,000 years, goes the doctrine, you can never say, "I'm sorry. I was wrong." Hell was devised as a fear tactic by the church. 4) The Bible is full of horrifying things. I don't care if the Egyptians were the enemy. That God slew the firstborn is repugnant. I have lost a child...no parent, enemy or friend should have to go through this. The Egyptian families who lost their firstborn were victims who had no say. They did not necessarily thwart the release of the captive Hebrews, yet they suffered. The Bible even says that God hardened Pharoh's heart. And that isn't the end of the horrors in the Bible. Drown the whole earth, except for one family. God brags about how great a servant Job is and baits Satan to wreck his life. God gives orders to murder every Cananite, even babies and donkeys...donkeys??? Would his will surely be upset by allowing a donkey or an infant to live??? 5) The Bible is full of confusion. Even if you ignored the horrifying stuff, you still have to deal with the confusing stuff. People debate endlessly on whether God really meant for women to be submissive to men, for children to be beaten with rods, why slavery was not condemned, what are valid reasons for divorce, whether or not there should be capital punishment, baptism necessary or symbolic, when will the tribulation occur, etc., etc., etc. If this was really God's Word, there should be NO confusion. 6) Christianity encourages judgmentalism. Because the basis for salvation is exclusive, it cannot simultaneously be accepting. No matter how much you like me, (if you did ), you willl still see me as an "unbeliever". I am still not on your team and damned in your eyes. There's more, but that'll do for now. After nearly 10 pages, this might be the first post that actually answers the question. Thanks, emeraldgirl. For the record, I believe in Jesus but you are not damned in my eyes. Following Jesus has not led me to be judgemental. I won't make any more presumptions about your fate than you would make about mine. To answer #2, if each moment presents infinite choices--it's not like only one of those choices is the right one. I do tend to agree that the righteous path is a narrow one, but I think there is still room for choice even within that narrow path. Also, I don't think that Adam's sin determined that we would sin. It was just the establishment of a bad habit within our race that grew and grew and stays with us to this day. We are bound to sin no so much because we can't be righteous--because we won't be righteous. As illustrated in the story of Adam and Eve, we suffer and die and are separated from God because we sin. We all sin, so we all deserve to suffer and die and to be separated from God. Jesus was a man without sin who did not deserve to suffer and die--our fate. But in sharing our fate, He shares with us the reward of being without sin--relationship with God. True love is demonstrated and actualized through sacrifice. If you love someone unconditionally, you will give your life for them. Ritual sacrifice in the OT and the sacrifice of Jesus in the NT are illustrations of that principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted November 7, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Hi emeraldgirl. I will say that not all of the things you presented are what my group of Christians believes, and is not what I and we believe is presented in scripture. If you want to talk about that we can? I do think her list is instructive for us as believers though, as it shows what may be coming across to the world about what we believe, and gives us some ideas about how to present the faith more clearly and truthfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mapletechie Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 You are aware. Yet you continue in unbelief. I am damned to the Hells of a hundred of religions. You are damned by just one less. We are both willingly disbelievers of many faiths and, according to those faiths, we will both be punished. My God has told me that those other religions lead to death, that their gods are dead. Unbelief in those other religions wont hurt me. It means Im following my God. Whether or not you like it you have been witnessed to and warned about the consequences of not choosing Jesus. You should investigate and be sure of your choice, given the eternal consequence of your choice. That's like saying, and I've used this analogy a million times, "Coca-Cola corporation told me Coke is better than pepsi, therefore it is." Those other "false beliefs" claim to be true just like yours does, they warn people just like yours does, and yet you're atheistic towards those faiths. Saying you "know their false because they are" isn't even an argument, it's just saying "I'm right because I am." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mapletechie Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 (edited) Whether or not you like it you have been witnessed to and warned about the consequences of not choosing Jesus. You should investigate and be sure of your choice, given the eternal consequence of your choice. Fair enough, but do you think you have thoroughly investigated all the other religions? I am guessing that, if you weren't born Christian, you are probably at least from a Christian family and/or community. Can you really say you know these other religions are false? Nice try, but we are already told they are false, we already know they are false, therefore, there is no reason to investigate them. Christianity isn't some abstract belief. We have a personal relationship with our Savior, and we have the Holy Spirit guiding us, giving us discernment, and living within us. We have the Bible as God's truth and an instruction book on how to live our christian lives. As Ayin Jade has said, you need to investigate things very carefully, as your choice has eternal consequences. You will not be able to stand before Christ and claim ignorance of the truth. If you investigated politician A and they made claims about how bad politician B was, would you take them at face value without investigating politician B? That's your logic. Children are raised in Saudi Arabia hearing only the Islamic point of view, and are convinced any religion other than Islam is false. What you "know" to be true is based on cultural influence and brainwashing. Edited November 7, 2006 by mapletechie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mapletechie Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 You are aware. Yet you continue in unbelief. I am damned to the Hells of a hundred of religions. You are damned by just one less. We are both willingly disbelievers of many faiths and, according to those faiths, we will both be punished. My God has told me that those other religions lead to death, that their gods are dead. Unbelief in those other religions wont hurt me. It means Im following my God. Whether or not you like it you have been witnessed to and warned about the consequences of not choosing Jesus. You should investigate and be sure of your choice, given the eternal consequence of your choice. An argument from intimidation doesn't faze me anymore than threatening you with the Islamic version of hell fazes you. An argument from intimidation is also a well-known fallacy often used in the absence of evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted November 7, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Good points, emeraldgirl. Close...one must know and embrace Jesus. Not the idea. Jesus is an idea. 5) The Bible is full of confusion. The bible is full of mystery. I pray the scales fall from your eyes. 6) Christianity encourages judgmentalism. Acually it is the opposite, we are not to be judgemental. However we may have discernment. I'm sorry allmylove4yougrowsdeeper, but you're really just replacing ugly-sounding words with better-sounding words that bear the same essential meaning. Christianity has been doing this for centuries in order to hide its ugliness from the public eye. There is a difference between connotation and denotation. A word's denotation is its strict literal meaning, and a word's connotation includes all the feelings it precipitates. Changing a word's connotation does not change it's true meaning. I live in America, a country that is 78% Christian, so religious words here often have bright and sunny connotations: faith, belief, etc. Only when one begins to think rationally and meaningful does one realize how meaningless--or worse, insane--these words really are. Who's insane here? Faith in Jesus Christ is a living faith! Don't knock it until you've tried it. Jesus Christ is the healer of all our diseases, including the clouded mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allmylove4ugrowsdeeper Posted November 7, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 27 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1969 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Hello Runner's High, Main Entry: 1mys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allmylove4ugrowsdeeper Posted November 7, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 27 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1969 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It seems like you think Christianity must be believed in order for it to be true. This is the opposite of sanity, in my opinion. Sane people desire to know if something is actually true before they choose to believe it. Sanity does not require a "leap of faith." Do sane people also desire to know something is not true before they disbelieve it? Insanity does not require a leap of faith either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mapletechie Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 It seems like you think Christianity must be believed in order for it to be true. This is the opposite of sanity, in my opinion. Sane people desire to know if something is actually true before they choose to believe it. Sanity does not require a "leap of faith." Do sane people also desire to know something is not true before they disbelieve it? Insanity does not require a leap of faith either. Do you need proof that Santa doesn't exist to disbelieve in him, or reasonable evidence to believe he does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted November 7, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I know my redeemer lives! That's the crux of it all. Once you meet Jesus, you KNOW that you KNOW. That is something those who have never met Him do not know. I don't worry about it. I do, however want to introduce you to Him! Blessings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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