nice board. Introduction

[Kabowd]

Faith has reasons, it employs logic as a means to arrive at truth. Sam Harris is probably right about a few things (unfortunately), there are way too many believers that rely on "experiences" and emotional highs rather than use the minds God gave them to grow in wisdom, knowledge and truth. This is why fewer and fewer Christians these days can stand and defend the faith...their faith is blind, they can't reason with anyone about it. In our post-modern culture, there is an overwhelmingly accepted philosophy that truth cannot be known, that there are no absolutes, that everything is just "relative". Many Christians have accepted some secular philosophies and mixed them into their faith (existentialism being one of them), and instead of loving God with their MINDS, they've largely abandoned their minds in pursuit of "experiencing God" or having some type of "revelation". Even on the boards, alot of times when an atheist will ask questions, the Christians will just say "you don't have the Holy Spirit, so you can't understand" or "i just believe, that's it". What kind of reasons are those? That's honestly pathetic and that's not the examples that Jesus or any of the apostles gave us.

Go into almost any modern American church on any given Sunday and most of what you'll find are people seeking after experiences, worshipping worship itself, seeking something to fill themselves up...to a large degree American Christianity is very humanistic and hedonistic. We've shifted from truth to being "seeker sensitive" and being politically correct. We want to be "positive" and not offend anyone. Who cares about knowing how to properly interpret Scripture anymore? It's a huge fight just to get a few people to accept instruction in proper exegesis even on this Christian website. And we wonder why we're losing our culture? We wonder why people like Sam Harris are becoming highly influencial authors in our society? Sadly, it's because non-believers tend to value their minds much more than believers do. They are articulate, they study, they believe in their own philosophy (even if it's anti-religion). What we need are more believers who are great thinkers, who are wise and articulate to stand up and defend the faith against these attacks. We have a few (JP Moreland, William Lane Craig, William Dembski, Nancy Pearcey, etc) but we need many more. We need great minds like Francis Schaeffer and CS Lewis, we need a return of intellectualism in Christianity. For far too long we've embraced anti-intellectualism and now we're reaping what we've sown.

But back to your questions, I understand where you're coming from and I honestly can see the point of some of the issues Harris raises. But there are answers (and I don't mean irrational/illogical answers). If you're honestly seeking the truth, I can hook you up with a list of some really good books that will give you a solid foundation. I'm not talking about pat-answers or canned responses about "how to answer an atheist" either. I'm talking about authors that explore epistemology, metaphysics and philosophies and teach you how to arrive at sound biblical conclusions. PM me if you're interested.

[Guest foxjoe]

Nebula said:

The interesting thing about the Bible, if you pay attention to those hailed as the great men of faith, were so not because they knew how to reason and logic God, but because they had a personal revelation of Him. When you have that personal revelation, you don't care what other men have to say about who they think God ought to be. "Where were you when the Earth was made...?"

What, great men like Augustus? Or our two great leaders that started the crusades? Or the many many priests now days that are either pedifiles or Gay? Or Hitler? (Yes Hitler was a Christian! at least he said he was in 1922. Man that guy backslid.

I didn't exist when the earth was made several hundred million years ago.

Even if I decide to let my Faith take me back to a certain point in my Christian walk, I don't think I can ever go back to fundamentalism simply because of cognitive dissonence. I wouldn't be honest with myself because of the Giant peace of evidence against what fundy's believe in the fist place.

The truth is, even as a Christian my personal revelations weren't really all that great. I learned things from other places that made my personal revelations seem like sand on a beach. So having those before by reading and thiking about the Bible on reflection, doesn't give me pause.

man said:

What you're experiencing right now is the main reason I don't read any other book then the bible.

Mark 12:29-31 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is, Hear o Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second like it, is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater then these.

answer: How can you study and be a doctor by reading the Bible? Or a chemest or a computer programmer? You have to read other books to gain knowledge, the Bible gives you negative knowledge. And how closed minded do you have to be to make this statement? Ar you in a cult man?

Oh and in Mark, (the golden rule). This was mentioned in 3 other books or places at least 1000 years before it made it in print in Mark. It says in Luke that if any man is against me, bring him before me and slay him with a sword. (why would we take this metaphorically) I mean arguments like this was used to start the crusades, and there was even argument layed befor us for torture by these priests. THIS IS OUR HISTORY.

--- continuing..

[Ovedya]

I became a Christian (born again) in 1988.

I have had problems with my Faith however feel that I may be helpful to seekers on this board.

Truth seeker, I guess that shoulda been my nick. Always a seeker of truth, and good moral values.

I signed up because I have a real problem, and would like some help with a good adequate resolution. You see, I read a secular book called "letter to a Christian Nation".

This has really disturbed my foundations and was wondering if anyone could give me some insight. Help in keeping my Faith solid, not shaken, or stirred as it is now. (Bond is coming out)

If we need to move this down to a different forum topic, please do so. I have some hard questions.

If a secular book, regardless of its meaning or intention, "shakes your foundation" then isn't the problem then with your foundation? Then wouldn't it be wise, therfore, to fortify your foundation, rather than continue to read books, etc. that are designed to put Christians like yourself in doubt about their faith?

I've never read the book, so I don;t know what's in it. However, I have found that in my readings of such things my faith has been strengthened because I know the real truth, and I have been able to contrast the truth with what I can clearly discern is a lie.

[Kabowd]

But I learned and became more educated in many fields, and as a computer programmer understand full well that we humans are terribly fallable when it comes to logic.

This is true - even in matters of "what is" - what is true, what is right, what is moral, what is God, what is not, . . . .

The interesting thing about the Bible, if you pay attention to those hailed as the great men of faith, were so not because they knew how to reason and logic God, but because they had a personal revelation of Him. When you have that personal revelation, you don't care what other men have to say about who they think God ought to be. "Where were you when the Earth was made...?"

If there remains in your heart any love for the Lord, then this is what you need to do. Lay aside the books and spend an hour or two crying out to the Lord to reveal Himself to you, to answer the charges Himself. If your faith has any meaning to you at all, this is the only cure. I know because I have been there.

Praying you come to know the Lord in ways you never realized!

Neb, I know you mean well...but this is simply biblically inaccurate. God does not require us to lay aside our minds/reason/logic in favor of an "experience" that we cannot explain. What great men of faith are you referring to who are supposedly illogical/irrational? What about Paul...Peter...Jesus? Geeze, even God Himself reasoned with His people. (Remember this topic?)

When people approach us with questions, we need to offer them more than "cry out for revelation" and/or imply that they don't have to use their minds in order to have faith in God. That is simply unscriptural, neb, I'm sorry.

[Guest man]

man said:

What you're experiencing right now is the main reason I don't read any other book then the bible.

Mark 12:29-31 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is, Hear o Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second like it, is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater then these.

answer: How can you study and be a doctor by reading the Bible? Or a chemest or a computer programmer? You have to read other books to gain knowledge, the Bible gives you negative knowledge. And how closed minded do you have to be to make this statement? Ar you in a cult man?

Oh and in Mark, (the golden rule). This was mentioned in 3 other books or places at least 1000 years before it made it in print in Mark. It says in Luke that if any man is against me, bring him before me and slay him with a sword. (why would we take this metaphorically) I mean arguments like this was used to start the crusades, and there was even argument layed befor us for torture by these priests. THIS IS OUR HISTORY.

--- continuing..

I didn't know you were studying to be a doctor. How stupid of me.

So I guess this is where I shake the dust off my feet.

You have a nice day.

[Kabowd]

I became a Christian (born again) in 1988.

I have had problems with my Faith however feel that I may be helpful to seekers on this board.

Truth seeker, I guess that shoulda been my nick. Always a seeker of truth, and good moral values.

I signed up because I have a real problem, and would like some help with a good adequate resolution. You see, I read a secular book called "letter to a Christian Nation".

This has really disturbed my foundations and was wondering if anyone could give me some insight. Help in keeping my Faith solid, not shaken, or stirred as it is now. (Bond is coming out)

If we need to move this down to a different forum topic, please do so. I have some hard questions.

If a secular book, regardless of its meaning or intention, "shakes your foundation" then isn't the problem then with your foundation? Then wouldn't it be wise, therfore, to fortify your foundation, rather than continue to read books, etc. that are designed to put Christians like yourself in doubt about their faith?

I've never read the book, so I don;t know what's in it. However, I have found that in my readings of such things my faith has been strengthened because I know the real truth, and I have been able to contrast the truth with what I can clearly discern is a lie.

I think this is an excellent point. Unlike some who would advocate not reading "secular" philosophies/books, etc...I really like to keep my mind sharp and try to stay up on what's out there. HOWEVER, as you state here....one must have a really FIRM foundation first. I would not suggest that people who are not firm in their Christian faith start reading books by Sam Harris..lol. It's extremely easy to be swayed by philosophies, ideas and worldviews. That's why I would suggest even more that believers become more rooted and grounded in their faith (i.e. STUDY, go deeper, use their MINDS) so that they can more easily detect lies and false ideas. This is even more of a reason why Christians need to have something more solid than an "experience". Experiences fade, emotions change like the wind, they're unreliable and unpredictable. Any and every religion can offer an "experience", not every religion can offer truth.

[Kabowd]

man said:

What you're experiencing right now is the main reason I don't read any other book then the bible.

Mark 12:29-31 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is, Hear o Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second like it, is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater then these.

answer: How can you study and be a doctor by reading the Bible? Or a chemest or a computer programmer? You have to read other books to gain knowledge, the Bible gives you negative knowledge. And how closed minded do you have to be to make this statement? Ar you in a cult man?

Oh and in Mark, (the golden rule). This was mentioned in 3 other books or places at least 1000 years before it made it in print in Mark. It says in Luke that if any man is against me, bring him before me and slay him with a sword. (why would we take this metaphorically) I mean arguments like this was used to start the crusades, and there was even argument layed befor us for torture by these priests. THIS IS OUR HISTORY.

--- continuing..

I didn't know you were studying to be a doctor. How stupid of me.

So I guess this is where I shake the dust off my feet.

You have a nice day.

man, you missed his point. However, foxjoe, I think Ovedya had a valid response. Also, in addition to what I said above I just wanted to reiterate that one should study to become grounded and rooted in the TRUTH first and foremost, so that you're able to detect the lies. Similar to how those who work in law enforcement and banks teach their employees to study original documents/currency etc so that they can detect the forgeries out there. They don't study the fake one's first, they become extremely familiar with the original first.

[Guest foxjoe]

traveler:

foxjoe, you keep saying that you question the honesty of someone that has found Jesus and concluded their search becasue they "are still here." meaning this site.

I only meant to address an answer "I found it All in Jesus" within that context. Sorry if you misunderstood. If you found it all, then why be here? No need to do anything else.

jackie:

The question I have foxjoe, is what foundations are being disturbed? The solid foundations that the Lord put into place for everyone directly through His word? Or is it the foundations that were built in you by the church (es) you have attended?(don't get me wrong, I am speaking of how man teaches...not church bashing) Do those questions make sense?

The fundamentals of God should be unshakable. And if you chose to read a book where the author's attempt is to break them down...the moment you recognized it, well.. I would have used the book for a fire starter or toilet paper.

Every foundation of every teaching is really suspect now. If the foundations are so solid, why is it that I am in conflict? I used the Bible and years of Bible study to build on, so you can say it is members of church, and you can say it is from "God's written word!". These things that I have said and am saying, and that Mr Harris has said are all straight from the Bible. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the firts Nurmberg devense that I the world has ever heard. What values does this add to our life exactly? The fact is Jackie that the fundamentals of God ARE SHAKABLE. You say they shouldn't, and I agree that they shouldn't, but the very fact that they are is the REASON I am here!.

-conginuing

[nebula]

Nebula said:

The interesting thing about the Bible, if you pay attention to those hailed as the great men of faith, were so not because they knew how to reason and logic God, but because they had a personal revelation of Him. When you have that personal revelation, you don't care what other men have to say about who they think God ought to be. "Where were you when the Earth was made...?"

What, great men like Augustus? Or our two great leaders that started the crusades? Or the many many priests now days that are either pedifiles or Gay? Or Hitler? (Yes Hitler was a Christian! at least he said he was in 1922. Man that guy backslid.

Is Augustus mentioned in the Bible? The crusades? Where are these in the Bible?

I said: "The interesting thing about the Bible, if you pay attention to those hailed as the great men of faith, . . . ."

So by "great men of faith," I mean Enoch, Abraham, David, Isaiah, Daniel, Peter, John, Paul, etc.

As for Hitler - the evidence of his life shows he didn't know what Christianity is - or rather who the Lord Jesus is. Just because he says he was a Christian didn't mean he was.

I didn't exist when the earth was made several hundred million years ago.

That was a reference to Job. You should read it sometime.

Even if I decide to let my Faith take me back to a certain point in my Christian walk, I don't think I can ever go back to fundamentalism simply because of cognitive dissonence. I wouldn't be honest with myself because of the Giant peace of evidence against what fundy's believe in the fist place.

And I'm not asking you to return too fundamentalism.

The truth is, even as a Christian my personal revelations weren't really all that great. I learned things from other places that made my personal revelations seem like sand on a beach. So having those before by reading and thiking about the Bible on reflection, doesn't give me pause.

I am sorry, but based upon what you said above, I have no evidence to believe you have seriously read the Bible for understanding. Whatever you "thought" about the Bible sounds m ore like what you gathered from what others have said. I have doubts that you ever examined the evidence for yourself.

[nebula]

Neb, I know you mean well...but this is simply biblically inaccurate. God does not require us to lay aside our minds/reason/logic in favor of an "experience" that we cannot explain.

That isn't what I said, nor what I meant.

What great men of faith are you referring to who are supposedly illogical/irrational?

I never called anyone that.

What about Paul...Peter...Jesus? Geeze, even God Himself reasoned with His people.

Do you deny that the Lord used miracles and revelations to reach His people as well?

(Remember this topic?)

Yeah, trying to get away from this fight was the whole reason I ran away from the Boards for awhile.

When people approach us with questions, we need to offer them more than "cry out for revelation" and/or imply that they don't have to use their minds in order to have faith in God. That is simply unscriptural, neb, I'm sorry.

It is a great way to test their hearts, though.