Riley322 Posted March 23, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2007 Well, I believe the gifts of the Spirit are just as real today as they ever were (or at least I long to). I attend and awesome Word focused, Spirit-filled church. I cannot deny the Truth laid out plainly for us in the scriptures. Yet I do struggle with unbelief in this area. That probably sounds a little confusing. To answer your question, yes, I believe, but then I don't . Riley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 23, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Amen! All the gifts of the spirit are present today in the Body of Jesus Christ! What right do we have to eschew them? They are for us, and for the furthering of His kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted March 23, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2007 Jehovah hears, knows & understands all the thousands of known languages of humankind. He created them every whit. God doesn't hate English or French or Spanish, or your particular language. Why strive to speak to your Lord & Savior - or prayer to Him with faith believing - in self-concocted & WHOLLY UNNAMED jibber-jabber when the Lord Who "made all things" is the world's best Expert in Anglais, Francais, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Mandarin, Cantonese, all ten or twelve languages declared in Acts 2: 8-11, the classic New Testament passage on Pentecostal languages, all the thousands of African dialects, plus sign language as well? Whatever your EARTHLY & KNOWN dialect happens to be, le roi s'avisera. You can count on it! He said, "Call on Me and I will answer!" He never once specified that it be in made-up non-language ala babies. AMEN & AMEN! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted March 23, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted March 23, 2007 Glossolaliasts will find precious little support for "unknown" languages involving "divine mumbo-jumbo" in Holy Scripture. The very word "unknown" doesn't appear in the original, but charismatic folk continue to underscore it. That must tell you something. "Angelic" languages are in every single instance in the Bible known, understood, national, earthly languages of humankind. So please refrain from bringing angels into any discussion of languages unless willing to admit that they spoke in known dialects in each instance. The very classic passage of Acts 2:8-11, which, in any such discussion, is always kindly left aside by Pentecostal-charismatic friends, states most conclusively that Pentecostal languages are indeed known, understood, national & earthly dialects of humankind, not "heavenly gibberish." Yea, "every man heard them speak IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE." And THAT'S the Pentecostal experience plumb and plain. Why shy from it? Plus of course, 'a sound from heaven as of a mighty rushing wind,' and 'cloven tongues like as of fire.' BOTH PRECEDED "speaking in languages" (Compare Acts 2:2,3 with Acts 2:4). Where, pray tell, are those other two essential Acts 2 occurences in each instance today? If not, how can one refer their personal experience to Pentecost, the major reference-point? There was vital SCRIPTURAL ORDER in Acts Chapter Two with respect to "initial physical evidence." Linguistic nonsense as portrayed in "heavenly mish-mash," and claimed as an exclusively Christian demonstration - in spite of involvement by non-Christian cults - leaves much to be desired. And methinks Isaiah 28:1-6 also contributes to the modern "tongues" element: back then drunken-type babblings (verses 9,10) led directly to the "tongues" that were to overtake the nation of Israel. Arthur, Arthur, Arthur, You said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 24, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Jehovah hears, knows & understands all the thousands of known languages of humankind. He created them every whit. God doesn't hate English or French or Spanish, or your particular language. Why strive to speak to your Lord & Savior - or prayer to Him with faith believing - in self-concocted & WHOLLY UNNAMED jibber-jabber when the Lord Who "made all things" is the world's best Expert in Anglais, Francais, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Mandarin, Cantonese, all ten or twelve languages declared in Acts 2: 8-11, the classic New Testament passage on Pentecostal languages, all the thousands of African dialects, plus sign language as well? Whatever your EARTHLY & KNOWN dialect happens to be, le roi s'avisera. You can count on it! He said, "Call on Me and I will answer!" He never once specified that it be in made-up non-language ala babies. AMEN & AMEN! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Who says we strive? Speaking in tongues is not self-concocted whatsoever. It is not my words, but rather the words of the Holy Spirit speaking through my submitted vocal chords. He speaks to the Father, uttering things from within my heart that are so deep I cannot say them, for my natural tongue is insufficient! This is one of the reasons this type of gift occurs. 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. Now I have patiently explained it to you, Arthur, so please be respectful. 1 Corinthians 14:20 Dear brothers and sisters, don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted March 24, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted March 24, 2007 I don't know how you separate faith from salvation; are you talking about sanctification? Like I have said I do not judge these outward gifts but I don't think they are a sign of partaking or not partaking of faith or grace anymore than any other believer. I don't really see this as some sort ladder of faith. Remember for example that the gift of administrations or teaching is just as important if not more as the gift of tongues, which are only a sign for unbelievers. Also there is no scriptural directive that all who have faith will have all of these gifts or any of them for that matter, as it says some will be teachers, some will prophesy, etc. Love of course as Paul said would trump them all. Thus the gift of showing true love would be what we should truly desire, and yes let the Holy Spirit rain down upon us to have this love and increase our faith, and yes let those who have other gifts use them to spread the Word and glorify God. Hi Smalcald, First, you cannot separate Faith from Salvation. When I spoke of Faith, I spoke of the degree or "measure" of Faith. Sanctification is by the once and forever offering of Christ's Blood and sealed by The Holy Spirit. We fairly well agree on most of this. I do not speak in tongues and have been judged unfairly in times past and there are some who say you are not saved. They lie. Paul also said to seek the Gift of Prophesying more than tongues for Prophesy Edifies the Body. Some take this to mean a new and currently unknown thing and even some believe this prophesying is only done through tongues with interpretation. They are in derision and have not studied that they might have wisdom of God and not man. My Gift as The Lord has revealed in me is to teach and exhort His Word in Love as you mentioned Paul brought forth to the Corinthians. Oddly, my wife and I have found that when we pray together binding in Love, we see the Lord move yet, when we have prayed apart, they are not as effectual. We have a prayer ministry within our ministry where we have many people and other Churches and Ministries onboard praying. Yet, we together (my wife and myself), found that when we bind these Requests we receive in unity of prayer, answers come quickly for the simplist to the most urgent. It is a Gift of God by the Holy Spirit. But I also know this, that not all who believe they have the Holy Spirit do. Not all in Scripture had Received Him even upon Believing and repenting at the first. Evidence proves in the Word that He did not come until the laying on of hands in Samaria(Philip, Peter and, John Acts 8:14-17) Cornelius at Peter's preaching(Acts 10:44) and Paul in Ephesus (Acts 19:2-6). I believe much of the preaching today on the Holy Ghost is in error in both camps and do not fit to the Word of God. In many "charismatic" camps, they seek the "signs" more than the sanctification and sealing. In many non or anti charismatic camps, they deny the Glory and Witness of Christ Jesus contained in His manifestations as a witness to His Glory. I "rode the fence" for a while on this for I saw the damage and falsehoods on both sides prevailing more than the Truth. But The Lord has taken me off "my fence" and narrowed the path in His Truth by His Word and The Holy Spirit. But He had to do this by my seeking deeper into Him. It comes no other way. I believe it was simpler in those days of Paul and Peter for there was no huge amounts of derisions and confusion with permeations of doctrines on Christianity then. satan loves to deceive and stop the Power of God moving in Jesus Christ and His Body. he does this by deceptions and fears. Some see the "deceptions" on one side (not looking at the Glory that doesn't deceive in some Manifestations) and fear of going the wrong way into that deception sets in with guarded mindset thereby deceiving and covering the eyes of the cautious as well. But, this I know; Perfect Love (only found in Jesus) will prevail if we so seek and laying aside all fears and doubts allowing Him to break the strongholds within us, we will see His Glory, Receive His Holy Ghost and be far better equipped and empowered to do His Work, no matter what the Gift or Gifts He gives unto us. Hi RC, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted March 24, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2007 I love it, I love it, but WHO'S essentially "bashing" whom? If one doesn't believe as Pentecostal-charismatics believe, one therefore has "not received the BHS"?! Very interesting. Here some kind folk go, boot-dropping again. I cannot speak to your BHS, but I can certainly speak to mine based on 1 Corinthians 12:12,13. ALL the Corinthian Church WERE (past tense) "baptized into one body...ALL made to drink into one Spirit." None left out. Strong & mature Christians, weak & impressionable Christians. Quite evidently the BHS forms the Body by uniting believers to Christ, the Risen & Glorified Head, and to each other. It's most significant that those who babble in "heavenly gibberish" have no BIBLICAL NAME for such gibberish. Nowhere does Holy Writ refer BY NAME to the denominational term of "prayer language." Languages in Acts in every instance were not meaningless "utterances," but they were means of conveying a MEANINGFUL message (Acts 2:11; 10:46; etc.). Likewise, the languages in 1 Corinthians also communicated MEANINGFUL content such as: In Acts, "the great things of God (2:4); "maginfying God's greatness" (10:46); ie, MEANINGFUL DOCTRINAL content, and never meaningless, empty gibberish as that of a little baby. In 1 Corinthians, a prayer to God (14:14,15); a song of praise (14:15); the giving of thanx (14:16). The very expression "KINDS of tinogues" is understandable only if "tongues" were real languages (1 Cor.12:10,28; 14:10). Any reputable linguist knows that the 3000 languages of the world are GROUPED into many classes or kinds. Such GROUPINGS or KINDS has reference to real, earthly dialects. And, of course, the very fact that "tongues" could be INTERPRETED demands that they be real languages (1 Cor.12:10,30; 14:5,13,27,28). INTERPRETATION necessitates meaning! Meaningless jabber-wocky cannot be interpreted. 1 Cor. 14:10,11 is clearly depicting REAL languages of earth. "Tongues-speaking" is said to consist of WORDS, which would be possible only if "tongues" were real languages. (1 Cor.14:9,19). The very "tongues" I drew your attention to in Isaiah 28:11, were REAl languages, namely ASSYRIAN, a REAL, EARTHLY language! 1 Cor. 14:22 shows that the "tongues" spoken of in the Apostolic Corinthian assembly (Verse 22) were the very SAME thing as THE ISAIAH "tongues" (Vs. 21), namely REAL, NATIONAL, EARTHLY languages, and never any "heavenly gibberish" fashioned by meaningless non-syllables. If the "tongues" referred to by Paul in 1 Cor. 14:21 are real languages, then the "tongues" in the very next verse - ie, the Corinthian "tongues" of Verse 22 must be the very same thing. But perhaps even more significant is the harshness & condemning tone of those charismatics who realize - perhaps some for the first time really - that not everybody thinks as they do re "heavenly gibberish" passing for biblical languages. If one is wholly disinclined to accept the Pentecostal-charismatic explanation re meaningless chatter, and sees such chatter as falling far short of being a known, earthly, national dialect, one is what....banished ala the Athenians? Heaven forbid. Cutting to the quick, although the glandular hysteria of cobbling together a "prou prey, praddey, pa palassate pa pau pu pe, teli terattate, taw, terrel, te te-te-te, vole veirte, vum, elee lete leele luto, singe, sirge, singe, imba, imba, imba" might be the charismatic friend's personal interpretation of "glossa" in Holy Writ, it's just as certainly not that of this particular observer or of......angels! Even ANGELS - Drum-roll, please! - bring testimony in Holy Writ against "divine mumbo-jumbo." A very salient point. Bottom-line: God understands well & enuf the thousands of real languages of His world without our resorting to meaningless babble as tho such were much easier for Jehovah to understand. La illaha illa'llah indeed. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 24, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Who's harsh? who's condemning? Look in the mirror, Arthur. Thousands of us are not wrong about our freedom in the Holy Spirit and His expressing Himself through us. By mimicking tongues in your banter, you are committing a grave sin of blasphemy. Repent and receive forgiveness now. From this point on do not expect blessing upon your ministry. I know you were told about the mimickry by the moderator here. You are insufferable, and doing the work of the enemy here in Worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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