Judas' betrayal - Will or Sin?

[Guest roxette]

Was Judas' betrayal an obedient act of God's will? Jesus had already prophesied about it, so was it a will of God? If yes will Judas be forgiven for his betrayal?

Please shift this post to a relevant forum (I am not able to post anywhere else). Also please do reply to my other post at http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=51675

Thanks

[HAZARD]

Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13).

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20).

These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal.

If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved.

It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men.

The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST.

Some cite John 6:64-70, but this passage does not say that Judas had at all times been a devil and unsaved. Jesus, in this Scripture was speaking of "some" of His disciples that believed not, and who should betray Him. The first part of this passage refers to the "some" that did not believe and does not include Judas. For after they had left Jesus JUDAS WAS STILL WITH THE TWELVE! whom Jesus asked, "Will ye also go away"???? See how easy it is to come to unsubstanciated conclusions!!! We must search the Scriptures like a bloodhound on the scent trail. Only the last part of this statement refers to Judas. Jesus knew who wdid not believe and He also knew who would betray Him. He did not say that Judas did not believe, nor that he was a devil from the beginning and therefore not a saved man.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for quite some time. Judas's weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Jesus escape the mob many times and he had no doubt the Lord would escape again and he would be thirty pieces better off.

It was not until the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love of Christ. And it was not untill the last supper that the devil entered into his mind and became united in the same crime. Two days before the passover the devil put it into the heart of Judas to go top Christs enemies and betray Him. (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time he openly broke away from christ AND SOUGHT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BETRAY HIM. Judas was sorry for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5), and he could have been forgiven as Peter was when he cursed God and denied Christ and fled like a coward at his test. But being of the disposition to do so Judas brooded over his sin and eventually yielded to satan to commit suicide. Judas then is a specific example of a New Testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace, but who lost this favour and went to Hell because of sin (Matt. 25:24 Acts 1:16-25).

Its this simple to understand. One cannot loose something we do not have! Jesus testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2).

To deny Judas was once a saved man who lost his salvation is to deny Scripture and also deny Jesus Christs own statemens regarding Judas. Jesus also acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom HE HAD LOST. Jesus Christ could not have LOST JUDAS HAD JUDAS NOT BEEN SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.! Judas had eternal life as much as the other apostles including Peter wo also denied Christ but he bacame "lost" and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

Not only were saved individuals warned to repent if they returned to sin, but entire churches were commanded by Jesus to repent or be lost. Many in the seven churches in Rev. 2-3 who WERE FALLEN from grace were repuired to repent and do their first works or else cut off in sin and be lost. Jesus was not a teacher of once in grace, or unconditional security always in grace and secure. He kept rebuking, warning, and commanding Christians to meet certain conditions if they were to be saved.

The Church at Ephesus, once in God's favour and grace at one time or it could not have fallen as indicated by Jesus Christ saying to it, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. "Remember therefore FROM WHENCE THOU ART FALLEN, [there it is, the entire church had fallen from grace], AND REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of its place, [and again Jesus warns] except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5). One losing his first love loses God, as is clear from 1 John 4:7-8 which shows that if one does not have love he does not have God. Anyone who does not have God or love, does not have grace. Having fallen from all of this, the church at Ephesus was ORDERED TO REPENT and do its first works, or have their candlestick removed, which means THE WHOLE CHURCH would be removed, for the candlestick represents the church (Rev. 1:20).

The church, completly destroyed for centuries, apparently did not return and do the first works again. As is the casewith any backslider, the latter end is worse that the beginning (Luke 11:24-26; 2 Peter 2:20-22). Christ demanded other churches to "repent" of idolatry, of comitting fornication, and adultery (Rev. 2:14-15, 19-24; 3:19), and He urged them to be on fire for God again, or be spewed out of "my mouth" (Rev. 3:15-16).

These and many other Scriptural, New Testament examples which have been given, and many more which can be shown plainly state that eternal life can be lost.

"And the times of this ignorance God WINKED AT; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:27-30). God does turn a blind eye to genuine mistakes. But if one deliberately backslides, and does not repent, as clearly shown by Scripture, one is lost, until one comes again to repentance.

In answer to the question. God wills that every man is saved. God does not condemn any man to eternal Hell, for if it was so, God would be the author of sin and death, and we know this is not true.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it.

Judas was sorry for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5), and he could have been forgiven as Peter was when he cursed God and denied Christ and fled like a coward at his test. But being of the disposition to do so Judas brooded over his sin and eventually yielded to satan to commit suicide. Judas then is a specific example of a New Testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace, but who lost this favour and went to Hell because of sin (Matt. 25:24 Acts 1:16-25). To commit suicide is to murder one's self and no murderer will ever get to Heaven.

Edited December 9, 2006 by HAZARD

[HAZARD]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12.

Perdition: distruction, ruin, waste, distruction.

Grace & truth, H.

What you have quoted is nothing new. Its this simple to understand. We cannot loose something we do not have!

Jesus also testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2). Read what Scriptures are presented above. The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). His name was written in the book of life as proved by Acts 1:20 with Psalms 69:25-29.You cannot erase a persons name from the book of life if it is not there to begin with? Jesus couldn't have lost Judas if He never had him in the first place. How could Jesus have lost Judas if He never had him in the first place? All Judas had to do was repent, as Peter repented after denying and cursing Jesus three times as was predicted by Jesus Himself.

[Enquirer]

I do not believe it is God's will that any man perish, but that all men come to repentence. I also believe that God will eventually use every man in some fashion or another. Those who will willingly do his will, he will use for good. Those who oppose him, he will give adequate time for repentence, and if the opposer refuses to repent, God will use him in his evil, for evil.

And I think Hazard has done adequate research to prove his point. And it is well iterated.

Enquirer

[Enquirer]

Good question roxette,

All mankind is doomed to eternal condemnation.

It pleased the Father to save some, it also pleased Him to condemn others, those who face eternal condemnation are like clay in His hands He will make them and shape them to fit His eternal purpose. This is seen in Yah Veh

[Trinity]

I agree with "Truster."

I have not made post in a long time, but i just could not let this post go; it would be almost criminal for me to do so.

Truster brought up John 17:12.

John 17:12 (King James Version)

I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In the Amplified Bible explains the greekin the verse alittle more/better.

John 17:12 (Amplified Bible)

While I was with them, I kept and preserved them in Your Name [in the knowledge and worship of You]. Those You have given Me I guarded and protected, and not one of them has perished or is lost except the son of perdition [Judas Iscariot--the one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost], that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Other verses about Judas:

Matthew 26:24 (New International Version)

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

John 6:70-71 (New International Version)

Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 13:11 (New International Version)

For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

John 13:27 (New International Version)

As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

What Jesus said about Judas: "He is an unclean devil and It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Can the devil dwell with God?

I don't think so.

[HAZARD]

Dear Trinity.

We need to use our God given common sense here. Do you think for one minute that God would create a man, any man, to be destined to eternal hell, and in His plan for men, send His Beloved begotton Son to die in man's stead, and then not allow man access to this slavation which Jesus Christ died to provide.

Jesus said to Peter, you will deny me thrice. Peter said No way, never! But he did, three times. He went away and wept and repented, and was forgiven. Peters name was not removed from the book of life. Had Peter brooded over his sin as Judas did and comitted suicide, he also would have been lost, and Jesus would have prayed, "Of all those whom you have given Me, only two have I lost. Judas the son of perdition, and Peter whom I fortold would betray me THRICE!

[Enquirer]

Peter was given grace to repent, Judas wasn't, and this is sovereign choice at work.

Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

For me this is not just verses or doctrine, I am one of those who deserve to be hardened, I deserve to be cast off and yet goodness & mercy pursue me all the days of my life. If it were human choice I would not survive; but it is sovereign choice and therefore cannot fail, blessed be The Lord.

So God is just teasing us when he said he "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance?" [2 Pet 3:9]

Or how can God will something, but not provide the grace by which it can be accomplished? No, my friend, I perceive that to be doctrine, not scripture.

[TeresaK1982]

I don't believe it was the will of god. Jesus prophisized about it but Judas still had his own will. God gave that to us and Judas chose to do wrong. If not him then some one else would have and god would have prophisized about him. It's all in the will god gave to us it's what we choose to do with that will.

[HAZARD]

Peter was given grace to repent, Judas wasn't, and this is sovereign choice at work.

Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

For me this is not just verses or doctrine, I am one of those who deserve to be hardened, I deserve to be cast off and yet goodness & mercy pursue me all the days of my life. If it were human choice I would not survive; but it is sovereign choice and therefore cannot fail, blessed be The Lord.

Dear Truster.

God does not select whome he will give grace to? The primary meaning of Grace in connection with God is: free, etenal, and UNMERITED LOVE AND FAVOUR of God toward all free moral agents who are the product of His own creation, whether human or spirit beings, and who are capable of God-consciousness and moral responsibility. Grace is the very fountain-head of all the manifold benefits and blessings of God to all of His creation (Read John 1:14-17; 3:16; Rom. 3:24; 5:17-21; 11:5, 6; 2 Cor. 9:8; Eph. 1:6, 7; 2:5-8; Jas. 4:6; and 1 Pet. 5:5).

What you seem to be subscribing to is "Once saved akways saved," and in addition, if God decides for whatever reason to discard a person whether good or bad, He will cut them off. Wouldn't that make God a respecter of persons?

Scripture teaches that God is no respector of persons (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; Gal. 2:6; Eph. 6:9), and He treats every man the same.

Classic examples.

Lucifer, better known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Earth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begine with, but he did not end in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart andsoul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny thruth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have been lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any length in trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

No, all Judas had to do was repent of his sin just as Peter, you me, and everyone else who believes repents when they fall to the wiles of the devil.