thepreacher Posted January 7, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2007 (edited) PART 1 of 3 Understanding Salvation I ask the scriptures not the world, WHEN do we become completely saved? I have seen debates on salvation by water baptism or belief only or grace only. I have seen debates on OSAS and a person can loose salvation. I believe this is what 2Tim 2:14 is talking about. I have questions or perhaps three points for all of you to consider. If any of you understand what I will say and agree to talk further then we can. I mean this post to try and help people come to agreement in the truth. Nothing denominational involved. I only use the bible and Stegenga or Strong's concordances to find answers. Playing With Words I believe there is one large obstacle stopping any agreement, concerning salvation. I call this playing with words. That is like people saying my word or verse is better than your words or verses. In reality most get all their words from the same source, the bible and they are ALL God's words. When either party (it only takes one) resorts to playing with words, then no agreement can be reached. The Words (just some of them) Is one man saved by Edited January 14, 2007 by thepreacher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted January 7, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 (edited) PART 2 of 3 THE HOLY SPIRIT Understanding Salvation I ask the scriptures not the world, WHEN do we become completely saved? I think this second point is the main key in showing the correct interpretation of Acts 10:44-48 that some seem to base their complete argument or doctrine on. This again stops all agreements and causes denominations. Just as the God the Father has many names and chooses to portray a function in each name. Such as Father, even when He is neither male nor female. He wants to be a father to us. Jesus Christ has many names with the reason or function or duties accomplished in that name. The Messiah, or our sacrificial lamb. The death of His body for one reason, shedding His blood for another and His resurrection still another reason. The Holy Spirit also has many names and functions or duties associated with those names. Such as the one who calls, who leads, who teaches the one who gives life. The Holy Spirit is not only given in different strengths. Not only giving or accomplishing different things in different people. Not only given by different givers. BUT! 4. Holy Spirit is given to us in different (positions) for different reasons or functions accomplishing different things. There are more studies on this but I am trying to make it as small as possible. This is very important to understand the difference in Act 10:44-48 . a). The Holy Spirit sent by God to be (WITH) someone Edited January 7, 2007 by thepreacher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted January 7, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 (edited) PART 3 OUR SALVATION Understanding Salvation I ask the scriptures not the world, WHEN do we become completely saved? I have noticed that many people have difficulty in agreeing upon the answer to two questions, "when is salvation?" and "can a person loose salvation?". I will attempt to answer both with the 3rd point I am making. To help understand salvation. Instead of looking at this subject as "loosing salvation" we should be looking at it as "not gaining salvation" or "not persevering to the end and gaining full salvation". I already mentioned before that salvation starts when God sends the Holy Spirit to be (with) someone. But, when is the work finished? So let us not play with words, but use them correctly. Putting aside that God knows who is actually His own and will be saved forever, but man does not know himself. The correct question is. When are we completely saved forever? It is a (process) that uses all the words God spoke of in the first and second points and also the very important point of (timing). Are we completely saved at repentance? No, because one can return to dead works again. Study the churches in Revelation. Are we completely saved at believing in God? No, because a people can be overcome with sin and reject God. Remember the parable of the seed and the soil? Mat 13:10-23. Are we completely saved having the Holy Spirit (with), (upon) or (in) us. No, if we grieve the Holy Spirit enough He will leave us Heb 6:4-8. BUT, if the Holy Spirit is in us it awaits to finish the process of our salvation. More later. Are we completely saved at any baptism? No, That is not the purpose of baptisms. If you remember, that we receive remission of sins at water baptism Act 2:38. Just as people receive remission of cancers today. In other words the work is not finished yet. Just like cancer can come back, so can sin overcome a person. Instead our flesh is circumcised from our soul and spirit Col 2:11-13. We then do recieve the Holy Spirit baptism (IN) and our souls and spirits are (being) saved but everything is not complete yet. The resurrection is when we are completely saved, and cannot loose salvation. We are waiting for our bodies to receive salvation and then we will be completely saved forever. Rom 8:23 (18-25) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 1Cor 15:35-57 According to 1Cor 15:54 "So WHEN this CORRUPTIBLE shall have put on INCORRUPTION and this MORTAL shall have put on IMMORTALITY Edited January 7, 2007 by thepreacher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treasured Posted January 8, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 171 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1951 Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) I don't know who believe that the Lord speaks to us....but I for one do (and don't wish to debate it). As for salvation...the Lord spoke to me this year about questions I had on salvation...."When you asked me into your heart, I became your Savior"..(that was as a child).."When you surrendered your life to Me, I became your Lord". ( that was 30 years later). That's all I personally need to know. That and He loves me more than I will ever comprehend! Something else I try and live by in my walk with Him: KISS...Keep It Simple Saint Edited January 8, 2007 by treasured 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted January 8, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) Understanding salvation? Salvation is something that we must first experience and only then shall we come to an understanding of it. We are first given trust to which we are to add virtue and then knowledge,(Peter) that is the order of the benefits that we are given and can expect to receive by grace. It is not wise to put anything before the gift of trust especially the understanding of fallen and corrupt humans, we are justified by trust and not understanding. Unto those that have received like precious trust unto them shall also be given the light of understanding and only those, many can read The Will but only the heirs can benefit. Grace & truth, H. truster, Thank you for your thoughts! Like I said, God sends his Holy Spirit to be (with) us, calling us (first), giving us the faith or (trust) as you say to continue in His word and doing his will. Edited January 8, 2007 by thepreacher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted January 8, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 I don't know who believe that the Lord speaks to us....but I for one do (and don't wish to debate it). As for salvation...the Lord spoke to me this year about questions I had on salvation...."When you asked me into your heart, I became your Savior"..(that was as a child).."When you surrendered your life to Me, I became your Lord". ( that was 30 years later). That's all I personally need to know. That and He loves me more than I will ever comprehend! Something else I try and live by in my walk with Him: KISS...Keep It Simple Saint treasured, Thank you for your thoughts. Oh! Yes the Lord speaks to us through his word the bible also. Things Jesus told his apostles to write down and teach us. Just an extra thought. I don't like to debate either but I like to talk about what God has written. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan77 Posted January 17, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 92 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/09/1982 Share Posted January 17, 2007 (edited) I thank you for your post. It left me with a lot of thoughts. But the strongest thought that came to mind was this. Matthew 19:26 (AMP) 23And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven. 25When the disciples heard this, they were utterly puzzled (astonished, bewildered), saying, Who then can be saved [from eternal death]? 26But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God. Just as an add on to what you said, what I make of this is that no good works of us can save us from God's eternal wrath. Only God Himself can save us through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ. And the step we need to take is to repent of our sin, turn our back on sin, turn our lives around and confess, believe in, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our only Lord and Saviour. Edited January 17, 2007 by juan77 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted January 18, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 I thank you for your post. It left me with a lot of thoughts. But the strongest thought that came to mind was this. Matthew 19:26 (AMP) 23And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven. 25When the disciples heard this, they were utterly puzzled (astonished, bewildered), saying, Who then can be saved [from eternal death]? 26But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God. Just as an add on to what you said, what I make of this is that no good works of us can save us from God's eternal wrath. Only God Himself can save us through the blood of His Son Jesus Christ. And the step we need to take is to repent of our sin, turn our back on sin, turn our lives around and confess, believe in, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our only Lord and Saviour. juan77, First of all thank you very much for your reply. What you said is the start of ones journey on the path that John the Baptist and Jesus Christ set straight and made for us to follow. The foundation spoke of in Mat 7:21-27 and Heb 5:11-6:8. That is laying the first part of the foundation of Christ in Hebrews 5:11-6:8. Verses 6:1 and 2 list these foundations that must be used to continue to eternal salvation. These are the works of God and not our works so please don't be confused. The first thing you said is repentance and that agrees with many scriptures. The first thing listed is Repentance from dead works. Actually we are covering this in another topic "I Would Like To See If Christians Could Agree" under Apologetics. The second thing you mentioned was actually converting, that agrees with many scriptures also. Which in the Greek means turn toward God for guidance. Much like Paul on the road to Damascus after he repented and turned toward God for guidance by asking, what must I do? The 3000 on the day of Pentecost after repenting turned toward Gods representatives asking, what must we do? Paul was told to go to a man sent by God to preach the truth and tell Paul what he must do. Peter a man sent by God preached the truth and told the 3000 What God said they must do next. These both comply with 1Cor 1:19-21. The reason why Jesus didn't tell Paul what to do but sent him to Ananias to preach to Paul was to do his Fathers will. Because God set up the process for us to be saved also through preaching by men sent by God. Jesus always did what the Father said no matter how foolish it seems to the world. The very next thing listed in the foundations is "Faith on God". You mentioned that also. You referred to this by saying believe in, trust in the Lord and confessing that he is the Lord. What this means is if the Lord tells you to do something you trust him enough to do it. Paul did. The 3000 on the day of Pentecost did. Every example in the new testament from the start of the ministry in Acts on shows the same pattern to follow. God sends the Holy Spirit to be with someone to call them, giving them enough faith to repent. God sends someone to preach the truth to us. Although we repent, God even gives us repentance. God next gives us the faith to believe in what he says we must do. The method, the reasons why and the results of everything God says that need to be accomplish in order to save us until the return of our Lord. At that time we are completely saved in our resurrection to eternal life. Following the rest of the foundation of Christ. Reading the things listed show the doctrine of baptism(s) as the very next thing to have accomplished in our lives. This word Baptisms is plural for a reason. Remember God always shows us his method, the reason why and the result of every command he gives us by scripture and example. The study on repentance is just about over. Maybe the next subject to see if Christians can agree should be on Christ's teaching in the foundations of the doctrine of Baptism(s). What do you think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan77 Posted January 19, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 92 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/09/1982 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) How wonderful and how glorious is the voice and the works of the Holy Spirit!!! It's amazing how two (or more) brothers can agree on the same subject by One Spirit! I said it. You explained it. You know what? I actually think it is sad that we as a family in Christ can fight so much with each other. It is one thing fighting, but another correcting each other in love. Maybe if we all give more attention to our Best Friend we will produce fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). What I've learned recently is this: 2 Cor.13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" God so loved the world that He became flesh (Jesus Christ) to save us from sure death. Jesus Christ graciously obeyed God the Father till the end. Jesus Christ sent us the Holy Spirit so we will not be alone. When Christ still walked the earth, the disciples could turn to Him for help. Now He's not here anymore. Holy Spirit is here now, and He's with everyone everywhere. Now we can trun to the Holy Spirit anytime. As the disciples made best friends with Jesus, likewise we should make best friends with the Holy Spirit. He is a person with feelings and everything and yearns to have communion with us. He wants to spend time with us, just as Jesus wanted to spend time with the disciples in those days. So maybe if we just get to know the Holy Spirit better, we would agree more. I think it is Paul that said we should be of one Spirit, and I believe he was speaking about the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor.13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" Edited January 19, 2007 by juan77 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepreacher Posted January 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 148 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 57 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/28/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 How wonderful and how glorious is the voice and the works of the Holy Spirit!!! It's amazing how two (or more) brothers can agree on the same subject by One Spirit! I said it. You explained it. You know what? I actually think it is sad that we as a family in Christ can fight so much with each other. It is one thing fighting, but another correcting each other in love. Maybe if we all give more attention to our Best Friend we will produce fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). What I've learned recently is this: 2 Cor.13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" God so loved the world that He became flesh (Jesus Christ) to save us from sure death. Jesus Christ graciously obeyed God the Father till the end. Jesus Christ sent us the Holy Spirit so we will not be alone. When Christ still walked the earth, the disciples could turn to Him for help. Now He's not here anymore. Holy Spirit is here now, and He's with everyone everywhere. Now we can trun to the Holy Spirit anytime. As the disciples made best friends with Jesus, likewise we should make best friends with the Holy Spirit. He is a person with feelings and everything and yearns to have communion with us. He wants to spend time with us, just as Jesus wanted to spend time with the disciples in those days. So maybe if we just get to know the Holy Spirit better, we would agree more. I think it is Paul that said we should be of one Spirit, and I believe he was speaking about the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor.13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" juan77, You sound like your full of joy and on the right path. Yes God wants us to help each other and show the fruits of the Holy Spirit. God bless you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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