Just out of curiousity...

[SaturnV]

Lol - okay SV a floating pen is the only evidence you will accept. In your box do you accept evidences other than physical evidences or is it your contention that all phenomena can be explained by natural causes? Can you prove concepts such as love exist using only physical evidence? In your box are there absolute truths or would you absolutely disagree with that concept?

I am catching a plane in three hours – maybe we can continue the discussion when I return.

Perhaps I shoud start a "What SV believes" thread

Aside from a life-altering personal revelation changing my mind about faith (which doesn't answer the OP's question), it would take something quite profound for me to believe in a higher power. I also believe that all currently known phenomena can be explained by natural causes. I can not rule out the possibility that there are other phenomena out there that cannot, although that strikes me as extremely improbable.

I believe concepts such as love, logic, truth, reason and so forth are constructs of the human mind, so they can indeed be explained by psychology and brain physiology, at least on a very fundamental level. Of course, I know that would be like trying to explain the Internet in terms of of 1's and 0's—although fundamentally true, it also misses the big picture. That's why I think philosophy, art and literature are important. They provide insight that science itself is not able to give.

On the other hand, it doesn't make Halo any less fun knowing that I'm watching pixels on my screen being controlled by millions of lines of computer code.

One last thing before I head off to frag some 4 foot tall, almond-eyed aliens in Halo: /*holds up fingers like Nixon*/

I AM NOT A RAELIAN!

Edited February 10, 2007 by SaturnV

[systemstrike_7]

One last thing before I head off to frag some 4 foot tall, almond-eyed aliens in Halo: /*holds up fingers like Nixon*/

I AM NOT A RAELIAN!

Very very funny!!

Oh man....

I love Halo...

[Joshua-777]

faith is a result of the unconditional love that has manifested itself after the fact. nice try. This is not a condition its a choice.

Faith doesn't make God's love unconditional though. Your faith is a result of wanting unconditional love and thinking that you have it, but the fact is that you still have to interpret the idea that even though God Loves you he somehow finds it necessary to throw you in hell if you don't worship him and believe in Jesus for it. That's not love, it's narcissism, and what real love there is to be offered is only there on the condiion of your faith.

Well, lets say that theres 2 paths, We are walking on a path that the end leads to a lake of fire, God gives us another path to walk on because he loves us, but he also gives us free will to walk that path, Thats not narcissism, And is beyond human logic. He doesn't throw us in hell, he honors our decision to go there, if we are walking on a path that will lead us to flames, then he will tell us, and give us a path that leads to peace, but he's not going to force us to accept him. There are only two sides, Satan is the one leading many to hell, because he knows that is where he's going to end up, all away from God are of satans, Now, With Logic, Jesus Christ provided us a way to salvation, through his sacrifice, it's our choice to accept it or now, so therefore He loves us, he gives us a choice and free will to choose.

Now the condition of faith, well faith in God, is very important, but it is different that avarage faith, it's fully trusting God, and opening ourselves to him, Now, we can drive in a car and have faith that a car is going to get us to where we're going, but that doesn't nessisarily mean we;re going to get there in that car, most the time it does, but the car can wreck. Now satan plans to make our faith like ordenary faith and lead us into a wreck, because if we don't have faith in God, then we look for other ways, satan provides other ways as traps to lead us away from God, faith isn't a condition, because faith can hold through all conditions, and we as humans put faith in somthing, Now if we don't hold our faith in Jesus, then satan can throw other answers that are lies, to lead us away, and because our faith is in this world, we put our faith in that path to destruction again, so holding faith in God prevents us from sliding away from him.

[systemstrike_7]

faith is a result of the unconditional love that has manifested itself after the fact. nice try. This is not a condition its a choice.

Faith doesn't make God's love unconditional though. Your faith is a result of wanting unconditional love and thinking that you have it, but the fact is that you still have to interpret the idea that even though God Loves you he somehow finds it necessary to throw you in hell if you don't worship him and believe in Jesus for it. That's not love, it's narcissism, and what real love there is to be offered is only there on the condiion of your faith.

Well, lets say that theres 2 paths, We are walking on a path that the end leads to a lake of fire, God gives us another path to walk on because he loves us, but he also gives us free will to walk that path, Thats not narcissism, And is beyond human logic. He doesn't throw us in hell, he honors our decision to go there, if we are walking on a path that will lead us to flames, then he will tell us, and give us a path that leads to peace, but he's not going to force us to accept him. There are only two sides, Satan is the one leading many to hell, because he knows that is where he's going to end up, all away from God are of satans, Now, With Logic, Jesus Christ provided us a way to salvation, through his sacrifice, it's our choice to accept it or now, so therefore He loves us, he gives us a choice and free will to choose.

Now the condition of faith, well faith in God, is very important, but it is different that avarage faith, it's fully trusting God, and opening ourselves to him, Now, we can drive in a car and have faith that a car is going to get us to where we're going, but that doesn't nessisarily mean we;re going to get there in that car, most the time it does, but the car can wreck. Now satan plans to make our faith like ordenary faith and lead us into a wreck, because if we don't have faith in God, then we look for other ways, satan provides other ways as traps to lead us away from God, faith isn't a condition, because faith can hold through all conditions, and we as humans put faith in somthing, Now if we don't hold our faith in Jesus, then satan can throw other answers that are lies, to lead us away, and because our faith is in this world, we put our faith in that path to destruction again, so holding faith in God prevents us from sliding away from him.

Josh13, you always seem to make really good analogies. I think you have a gift...

Sorry, just thought I'd throw that in there...

[tdrehfal]

EDIT: I just googled EST. That was some scary stuff.

I'm also not attempting to compare religion itself to cults. I realize that's how I may have come off, and it was not my intention.

Oh, I just noticed this part unless you were editing while I was taking forever to post my rambling replies yes, EST very scary but not at the time of being involved. At first it was empowering but like any untruth not of God, will eventually lose the power, the emptiness will return because it is a man made organization started with the idea of one man and developing it, refining it, and teaching his underlings to go out and get more people, somehow planting the notion that yes, it is costly for the seminar but do what you have to do to get the money to pay and then one continues to pay and pay and pay and not only with $$ but a false sense of self control. Seriously deceptive.

It's really par for the course with cults. The most successful ones seem to be those that that give the greatest sense of empowerment or purpose. I studied such things a bit when I took psychology, and it's downright scary how people can be manipulated.

What, Who are Raelians. That is one I have never heard of, ever.

I'm surprised you never heard of the Raelians, as they were all over the news a few years back. They were pretty big in Quebec a few years ago, and they claim to have 60,000 members worldwide. Here's their statement of belief from their site:

HUMAN SCIENTISTS FROM ANOTHER PLANET CREATED ALL LIFE ON EARTH USING DNA.

Traces of this epic masterpiece of creation can be found in all religious writings and traditions. It is to them that Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed referred. It is now time to welcome them.

WHAT HAPPENED?

On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial human being was a little over four feet tall, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin, and exuded harmony and humor. Rael recently described him by saying quite simply, "If he were to walk down a street in Japan, he would not even be noticed." In other words, they look like us, and we look like them. In fact, we were created "in their image" as explained in the Bible.

He told Rael that:

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth"

"You mistook us for gods"

"We were at the origin of your main religions"

"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"

They basically think Mankind's destiny is to use human cloning to seed other planets, and therefore become Gods ourselves. No, I don't understand it either.

I added the bit in my edit there because I had a similar discussion before, and an overly sensitive type read things into what I said that weren't really there. Just figured I'd head any potential problems off at the pass

This is funny.

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth" - Really? So couldn't you have done without making us DIE? What a crappy design. My God tells me

its my fault I die, but you're telling me its YOUR FAULT. So explain your crappy designs or fess up that you made a mistake.

"You mistook us for gods" - It would've been a good idea for you not to pine yourself off as Gods. The simple statement "We're not gods" would've

been sufficient. Duh.

"We were at the origin of your main religions" Really? So you're creating multiple belief systems? Only thing can be the truth at at time.

Thanks for all the chaos and confusion.

"Now that you're mature enough..."

Yeah? So why didn't you help us mature by telling us that a) you're not gods, and b) not creating a bunch of belief systems, and c) why the heck did

you abandon us in the first place? You might also wanted to have warned us about the dangers of uranium enrichment and nuclear weapons.

You know what? You're full of crap.

Maybe on your planet someone came to you and tried to peddle this crap, and you fell for it, but here on earth, we actually have something called logic.

Go Home ET.

Wait, hold on a sec and take a breath before you reply with ugly insults along with the choice of verbage. Saturn wasn't claiming that he adopted the Raeliens insanely ridiculous ( maybe drug induced the creativity of "Rael" like Hmmm Alice in Wonderland ) tale of such an experience and to actually have such a large and must say, lost, number of followers is baffling. I believe Saturn was answering my question on who are Raeliens. If your your reply is directly at him, I'd say an apology might be the mature thing to do. If your post is directed to these "Raeliens" then disregard. I would appreciate it though if you could clear it up either way with a pretty please to boot

Heh, it was directed at the "alien".

[Joshua-777]

faith is a result of the unconditional love that has manifested itself after the fact. nice try. This is not a condition its a choice.

Faith doesn't make God's love unconditional though. Your faith is a result of wanting unconditional love and thinking that you have it, but the fact is that you still have to interpret the idea that even though God Loves you he somehow finds it necessary to throw you in hell if you don't worship him and believe in Jesus for it. That's not love, it's narcissism, and what real love there is to be offered is only there on the condiion of your faith.

Well, lets say that theres 2 paths, We are walking on a path that the end leads to a lake of fire, God gives us another path to walk on because he loves us, but he also gives us free will to walk that path, Thats not narcissism, And is beyond human logic. He doesn't throw us in hell, he honors our decision to go there, if we are walking on a path that will lead us to flames, then he will tell us, and give us a path that leads to peace, but he's not going to force us to accept him. There are only two sides, Satan is the one leading many to hell, because he knows that is where he's going to end up, all away from God are of satans, Now, With Logic, Jesus Christ provided us a way to salvation, through his sacrifice, it's our choice to accept it or now, so therefore He loves us, he gives us a choice and free will to choose.

Now the condition of faith, well faith in God, is very important, but it is different that avarage faith, it's fully trusting God, and opening ourselves to him, Now, we can drive in a car and have faith that a car is going to get us to where we're going, but that doesn't nessisarily mean we;re going to get there in that car, most the time it does, but the car can wreck. Now satan plans to make our faith like ordenary faith and lead us into a wreck, because if we don't have faith in God, then we look for other ways, satan provides other ways as traps to lead us away from God, faith isn't a condition, because faith can hold through all conditions, and we as humans put faith in somthing, Now if we don't hold our faith in Jesus, then satan can throw other answers that are lies, to lead us away, and because our faith is in this world, we put our faith in that path to destruction again, so holding faith in God prevents us from sliding away from him.

Josh13, you always seem to make really good analogies. I think you have a gift...

Sorry, just thought I'd throw that in there...

hey thanks

[Joshua-777]

If we don't see a firey lake, but a book or a fool tells us there is one, and that the only way to avoid the lake is to believe it's all around you and that you have a reason to fear it, then yes, it's beyond human logic to assume such a threat. The fact that it is beyond human logic is more reason to think that we are of no moral consequence to choose one way or another. It's the difference between gambling and not gambling. I don't have to gamble at all, because I can know the truth. The idea that god made such a lake and requires us to believe in him to get ourselves away from it is all the more proof that God is narcissistic, or just sick in the head. I could just as soon decide all of my choices with a coin toss. I'm not risking anything by knowing that God wouldn't care about which path we chose if such work was his own making. Expecting me to believe in something that I haven't enough reason to believe in is no different thanexpecting me to believe in a superstition. How do you deal with superstitions? If someone tells you that you'll be saved if you believe that they are God, is that the beyond human logic you are supposed to follow?

Signs are all in place, and it's more than a book or a fool to tell us there is one, If one choses to not believe that, is that one willing to look at the evidence for beliefe? Interesting that you say that "this is more reason tot hink that we are of no moral consequence to chose one way or another" Oviously you state this is an observable reason for there to be no moral consequence, which out looking at the observations we see in moral consequence. Now lets look at some examples.

1. A child gets molested because her dad molests

2. Her dad goes to jail out of moral consequence and his daughter has a scar the rest of her life

3. Conclusion, there is a moral consequence.

Now we have all the evidence we need, you say you haven't enough reason to believe in, Now, you can debate forever, but the truth remains the same, Ya see, Christians arn't blind, and they don't just accept and believe, theres more to it, a personal relationship with God, who reveals things in our lives, heals us, gives us knowledge and understanding, spiritual gifts, I have seen many crazy things this spirit does in our lives, observable to those that know the spirit, those who denie him and do not accept him out of selfish reason, and ignorence, they have a moral consequence. Everything in life is cause and affect, and everything has a consequence, wether positive or negative, all things have consequence.

And you know what

narcissistic

characteristic of those having an inflated idea of their own importance.

Well God did create all there was and all there is, everything you see, and he is all good, perfect and holy, He desires to be worshiped, and deserves it, no it's not an inflated idea of his own importance, it's knowing he created all things, and is important, he is the only way, he didn't create another way. That is not an inflated idea, it's truth and reality.

If someone tells me I am saved because they are a god, no I wouldnt believe it, I know God personaly and I would never fall in a trap like this, Now if someone came preforming signs and miracles, I still wouldn't believe it, because the false prophet will come preparing the way for the antiChrist and decepting many.

An adulterious generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to them.

And no I do not walk in fear of a lake of fire, and I do not act as if the lake of fire is all around me, I am far from it, and logicly no one should act that way, but if your walking on a bridge that is going to colapse, someone tells you it's going to colapse and you say oh thats just a fool, the bridge is in good condition, and there are signs on it saying this bridge isn't stable, but you say ahh just paper, doesn't mean anything. You chose to walk the bridge anyways and it colapses, who is guilty?

This sounds a lot more like you are separating ordinary logic from your own special logic. God faith vs Car faith. You aren't even arguing what makes them different, you're just assuming that the God of the bible can't let you down. Honestly, in this metaphor, is it a sin to wear a seat belt when you're riding in your god?

No, actualy I'm not, example of two different faiths, Now faith is the evidence and the substance of things unseen, this faith only comes from God, it is a spiritual gift, given to us by the spirit, all other faith is just belief. You can trash on my metaphore like a child if you wish, but all your doing is showing a flaw in your own logic, what I assume is never what I have faith in, What ever I assume I am corrected by God. Your reply back shows you have little or no understanding on what the metaphor means. Now, Faith in God keeps us grounded in God, and keeps his presence dwelling in our spirits, faith keeps us grounded, when we drift in faith, satan has an opertunity to catch us off guard and lead us the way of the world. Now about the way of this would, You want to see where it's going? entrophy, a system alone goes from a state of order to disorder, that is the way of this world, and when it winds down it will be destroyed. God provided a way out, If you knew God you would understand.

And here we have the metaphysical differences that cause one to view another as being out of their mind. I say that God is a big jelly doughnut and if you don't believe it you will not be able to eat your waay out. Praying to St. Homer Simpson should help you to believe.

Wow, ya know your post about metaphysics was pretty intelligent, which I'll give you credit it was a good post, but your simplistic views and complete mocking of faith, shows that you would rather be ignorant than to accept. Now as you said in metaphysics, it sounds like it's crazy, but through a process there is a logical reason why both sides have come to the conclusion, yet you use an illogical, and mocking analigy to show your point? Do I need to point out the contradiction?

You use reason to come to the conclusion we have no reason

so how can you use reason?

So how can you have reason if there is no reason? That is a contradiction.

understanding is based on personal experience, and a willingness to understand

So if all logic denies others personal experience, how is that understanding?

Is logic without understanding?

Now, when you plant a seed, if it gets no water, it cant grow, if it isn't planted in good soil it doesn't grow.

When you accept Jesus you accept a seed, now how can you say there is no plant when you denie the seed?

Now if you want evidence, my life is evidence that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, others lives are evidence that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Evidence is all around, and those that do not accept the evidence are without excuse.

you said in an earlier post

Then there was the point about belief being illogical.

If:

1. The point of logic is to prove things

2. Belief when what is accepted has no proof

Then:

3. Belief is illogical

Define logic

1. [n] reasoned and reasonable judgment;

2[n] the branch of philosophy that analyzes inference

3. [n] the principles that guide reasoning within a given field or situation;

4. [n] a system of reasoning.

The system of logic isn't the ability to prove things, it's the ability to reason, now if you do not understand the reason behind the faith then how can you come to the conclusion without evidence that faith has no logic?

[hatsoff]

Religious faith entails a certain degree of logic, sure, but on the whole it is an illogical worldview without a special revelation. And despite Christians' continual claims that they have had such revelations, neither myself nor many non-Christians believe them. This in turn leads us to the logical and rational conclusion that religious faith is always inherently illogical at its core.

Edited February 11, 2007 by hatsoff

[tdrehfal]

Well, lets say that theres 2 paths, We are walking on a path that the end leads to a lake of fire, God gives us another path to walk on because he loves us, but he also gives us free will to walk that path, Thats not narcissism, And is beyond human logic.

If we don't see a firey lake, but a book or a fool tells us there is one, and that the only way to avoid the lake is to believe it's all around you and that you have a reason to fear it, then yes, it's beyond human logic to assume such a threat. The fact that it is beyond human logic is more reason to think that we are of no moral consequence to choose one way or another. It's the difference between gambling and not gambling. I don't have to gamble at all, because I can know the truth. The idea that god made such a lake and requires us to believe in him to get ourselves away from it is all the more proof that God is narcissistic, or just sick in the head. I could just as soon decide all of my choices with a coin toss. I'm not risking anything by knowing that God wouldn't care about which path we chose if such work was his own making. Expecting me to believe in something that I haven't enough reason to believe in is no different thanexpecting me to believe in a superstition. How do you deal with superstitions? If someone tells you that you'll be saved if you believe that they are God, is that the beyond human logic you are supposed to follow?

Now, we can drive in a car and have faith that a car is going to get us to where we're going, but that doesn't nessisarily mean we;re going to get there in that car, most the time it does, but the car can wreck. Now satan plans to make our faith like ordenary faith and lead us into a wreck, because if we don't have faith in God, then we look for other ways,

This sounds a lot more like you are separating ordinary logic from your own special logic. God faith vs Car faith. You aren't even arguing what makes them different, you're just assuming that the God of the bible can't let you down. Honestly, in this metaphor, is it a sin to wear a seat belt when you're riding in your god?

Now if we don't hold our faith in Jesus, then satan can throw other answers that are lies, to lead us away, and because our faith is in this world, we put our faith in that path to destruction again, so holding faith in God prevents us from sliding away from him.

And here we have the metaphysical differences that cause one to view another as being out of their mind. I say that God is a big jelly doughnut and if you don't believe it you will not be able to eat your waay out. Praying to St. Homer Simpson should help you to believe.

My patience is wearing thin. I'm usually courteous but attacking josh-13 as though he is stupid strikes a nerve. I wonder just how young of an idealist

this guy is? Probably 12.

[tdrehfal]

My patience is wearing thin. I'm usually courteous but attacking josh-13 as though he is stupid strikes a nerve. I wonder just how young of an idealist

this guy is? Probably 12.

I don't understand how you think that I could be attacking him. I'm having an honest debate with him. What exactly have I said that comes off as attacking or offensive?

You can't be meaning that I'm attacking him just because I am questioning his beliefs can you? If you are suggesting that then it could just as easily be seen that he is attacking me for my logic. I don't claim that he's attacking me at all, but I can't make any other sense of what you would mean by this.

Also, Josh13, I spent a good hour responding to your last post and some fluke on the site occured. Then I lost it from going back too many times and copying the wrong thing. So I'll get back to it later, but the strain of having wasted that time is too frustrating for me to go back to it right away. I will respond to your argument soon though.

Comparing our God to say, Homer Simpson would be a direct attack. Don't tell me you arent attacking, you are not having an intellectual debate when

using Homer Simpson as some kind of example. We do not beleive our God is a jelly donut or Homer Simpson. This is where it degrades into an

attack rather than debate. You must understand the we Christians actually believe what we are talking about, and you will not attack a brother in

Christ without my saying something about it. That was basically the first time ever i posted something like that out about 200 posts but do NOT

speak with a condscending or attacking tone to josh-13. Thank you. Please dont refer to Homer Simpson or jelly donuts like that's our belief.

You wouldn't do it to any buddhist or muslim you'd probably respect the belief, SO YOU

RESPECT OURS TOO. We consider God to be holy, so respect it while debating. enough said.

Edited February 12, 2007 by tdrehfal