systemstrike_7

Its more than a theory, strike. Its actually the belief of most Eastern Christians. Jews wrote in a writing style that was very exagetory (i dont know if thats a word) but they over did everything. When they used the word "world", it more often meant just them, because Israel was their world. They had the ego centricities of a 3 year old, not self centered, but that the world only stretched to the borders of Israel, because they are God's chosen. I know what you mean, I had just heard that somewhere and was wondering if it held any respectability among others. And yes, the Israelites were very self-centered. You can see that in the many rapacious and murderous sieges they would perpetrate against their conquerees (don't know if that's a word either). And they justified this simply because they believed God told them too.

I heard this somewhere and it could be completely false, but it might make for some good conversation. I heard that all the flood stories could have derived from some natural catastrophe that happened near the Black Sea. Has anyone else ever heard of this theory?

Ya, but if I had never read the Bible and I saw a burning bush, I would probably just put it out... Sorry, thought I'd throw some comic relief in there...

Here's what i was saying, smal, is that only the people whom havent heard of Christ will be judged based on character and integrity. Those of us fortunate enough to hear of Christ are judged based on our decision to follow or not. I dont think there is an ultimate paridigm as to how people will be judged, and furthermore, i personally dont put much stock into the afterlife. Through research i have found that Jesus was very concerned with the day and time in which he lived. Therefore so am I. Im not worried about where im going, to heaven or to hell, and more so i dont really believe in a heaven or a hell. Im not living life with the goal being to get to heaven. Too many Christians are living that way, and it's selfish. To many churches are preaching this way, and its selfish. Our goal should not be to use people as rungs of our little ladder to heaven. Our goal should not be to condemn non-believers to hell. You don't believe in a heaven or a hell? Then what do you believe happens after we die? Thats just it. I believe that very question, "Where will I go when I die?", is selfish. I dont care where i go. I believe that if i live as Christ lived, stay faithful to my wife, faithful to God, love my family, then life right now will be wonderful. I want to live life to the fullest, i want to enrich relationships. I want to love people, and serve people. If all i do between now and death is deepen one relationship, if all i do between now and death is set in concrete one friendship, in and through Christ, then i've succeeded. I want to live as Jesus lived. I dont want to always keep a wary eye on my soul, and worry about death, and after death. What a horrible waste of this beautiful live i've been given. To just want to rush to the end. I hear Christians non-stop say "I wish i could just get to heaven." "Oh if only Jesus would come now." Come ON. Lets live!!! Lets enrich our lives through relationship with other people, lets dare to cross the line and turn friendships into extended family members. I say stop being perfect, or trying to achieve perfection. I find it sad to think that most Christians are so unhappy with their lives because they try to reach a standard set for them by people who couldn't attain it themselves, and all because they think its biblical. Wow, that is crazy. But it is absolutely right. I believe you are about one in a million my friend. I'm very impressed. I use to believe that the only reason people started "religions" was to comfort themselves. They just wanted to believe that life after this was going to be perfect, and then rules and regulations followed soon after. But you make a very good point. If only the entire world had that philosophy. But I'm afraid that will never happen.

Here's what i was saying, smal, is that only the people whom havent heard of Christ will be judged based on character and integrity. Those of us fortunate enough to hear of Christ are judged based on our decision to follow or not. I dont think there is an ultimate paridigm as to how people will be judged, and furthermore, i personally dont put much stock into the afterlife. Through research i have found that Jesus was very concerned with the day and time in which he lived. Therefore so am I. Im not worried about where im going, to heaven or to hell, and more so i dont really believe in a heaven or a hell. Im not living life with the goal being to get to heaven. Too many Christians are living that way, and it's selfish. To many churches are preaching this way, and its selfish. Our goal should not be to use people as rungs of our little ladder to heaven. Our goal should not be to condemn non-believers to hell. You don't believe in a heaven or a hell? Then what do you believe happens after we die?

My point was that Jesus said He would be in the center of the Earth for 3 days and 3 nights (the sign of Jonah). But regardless, I think this thread has run its course.

I'm going to assume you had not yet read my quote in post #16 when you posted this. Jesus Christ did say that no one will get to the Father except through Him. He did not lie, but nowhere did He say that only through a personal relationship with Him can you get to heaven. You don't necessarily have to know Him to be saved through Him. The simple answer to your question is that we just don't know how God will judge them, we only know that they will be judged by a merciful and just God and we have very little reason to belive they are simply all going to hell. I see what you're saying, i think. So you mean that Jesus still has the power to save people who have never heard His name... correct? Well then we should consider the passage John 6: 53-57: 53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me. It seems He is saying that unless you eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, then you will not have eternal life.

I'm not how this verse is related, but as to the other verse: Yes, Jesus rose the 1st day of the week, but with this being said, he couldn't have died on Friday. That wouldn't be 3 days and 3 nights. And as Yahsway said, the tomb was empty on the 1st day. He very well could have risen on the sabbath. Which, if Christ died on thursday, then that would be 3 days and 3 nights exactly.

I will say this one more time: Jesus Christ HIMSELF said that NO ONE will get to the FATHER except THROUGH HIM. I don't see any exception in Jesus' words. There is just no way around them. So was Jesus lying? Did Jesus actually say that? Or was that simply John's theological agenda putting words in Jesus' mouth? And if it is true, then why would a GOD OF LOVE do such a terrible thing? You can tell me that God has the power to choose whatever He wants, but I cannot and will not worship a God who sends someone to Hell who He intentionally put in a position that they had no other choice. As for the part about how the hypothetical tribesman should search out for "a faith" if he truly wants to be morally correct, how is this tribesman supposed to do it? If this person is in a place where Chrsitianity hasn't reached him yet, what makes you think they will have an extensive library with books on every different religion? Again, the God of Christianity's very nature (if not existence) depends upon the answer to this question. You can deny that all you want, but it will get you nowhere. Another side note: If Paul is telling us that those apart from the Law are judged apart from the Law and if those who he talks about are people who will never have the chance to even hear the name of Jesus, then is He not blatantly contradicting the words of Jesus? I don't think there is any way to get around what Jesus said. And I personally give more credit to Jesus than to Paul.

None of them. Are you without sin? No you are not. Do you go to heaven? Yes you do. Why? Because you fall under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Do these hypothetical tribesmen fall under the Grace of Christ? No. Have they had the oppurtunity to fall under that Grace? No they haven't. So do they go to hell? I certainly hope not. That would make me a bit suspicious of God's mercy (and logic). There, I just saved us from having a long conversation by stating the entire thing in one post. Are you saying that God is unjust if He choose to send sinners to hell? Is this not His sovereign right? Is not grace and forgiveness His to give? Who makes the choice of the circumstances of where these hypothetical tribesmen were born? JB Rom 9:14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. As for Ayin Jade's post, I still believe Paul is speaking about the Law as regards to the Gentiles. I am certainly saying that God is unjust if He sends people to Hell simply because He made them live somewhere that they had no oppurtunity to hear the word of Christ. Does He have that right? I suppose He does, but that doesn't mean I agree with His decision. What if you were one of those tribesmen? What if you were to die without ever hearing the message of Christ and you stood in front of God and He told you, "You are going to Hell for not believing in my Son." Wouldn't you feel that He dealt with you a bit unjustly?

I can't do that. God has not given me a direct answer to really any of my questions. So I have to rely on study and research to get them. And no, I'm not speaking about the tribes separate from the Children of God in the Tanakh. I'm speaking about here and now. I'm speaking about those who have never had the oppurtunity to know the God we worship simply because they have never even heard His name. So this is still a very big issue which could use some clarification. His very nature is dependant upon the answer to this question. No one would want to worship a god who sends people to an eternity of torture simply because they never had the chance to decide otherwise.

When I first asked myself this question, I also found that passage. But Paul is speaking about Gentiles and the Law (meaning Torah), not the Grace of Christ. Maybe there is no biblical answer to this question...

None of them. Are you without sin? No you are not. Do you go to heaven? Yes you do. Why? Because you fall under the Grace of Jesus Christ. Do these hypothetical tribesmen fall under the Grace of Christ? No. Have they had the oppurtunity to fall under that Grace? No they haven't. So do they go to hell? I certainly hope not. That would make me a bit suspicious of God's mercy (and logic). There, I just saved us from having a long conversation by stating the entire thing in one post.

Grace to you, Hmmmm? System do you believe that Jesus is God even as those dusty old pages say he is? Peace, Dave Well, I feel a bit foolish now. I just realized that I am already listed as a nonbeliever. I find this odd, but I'm sure your reasoning is sufficient. I'm not one too argue about such matters. Do as you wish...

I'm sure this question has been asked before, maybe even by me, but it still haunts me to this day. So I will ask it in the hopes that someone can give me an answer to calm my conscience. Throughout history and still today, there are people who have never heard the word of God or of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that no one will get to the Father except through me. If this is true, what happens to someone who never even had a chance to hear about Jesus? What if there is a remote tribe on an island off of Africa that has never heard of Jesus Christ? Does that tribe go to hell simply because they were never given the chance to make the decision to follow Christ? If so, does that truly make God merciful?