ladypeartree Posted March 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 37 Topic Count: 540 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 32,876 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 23,593 Days Won: 228 Joined: 06/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1953 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Just want to say THANK YOU although I have to play catch up with a lot of this as with the time differences I am in bed whilst you lot are having supper ( ) it is VERY informative and helpful...and Gia please keep asking questions they are often the questions I would ask if I was awake to ask them Shiloh..thank you so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Can we break this down to a more basic level? Lets start with "circumcision". Who were those who were circumsized? Where we find circumcision first mentioned in Genesis 17. All of the male members of Abraham's household were circumcised and it was commanded that every one of the physical descendents of Abraham's household would also be circumcised on the eigth day after birth. Now, as we read in the chapter, God defines Abraham's "household." Abraham's household, descendents are counted as coming through Isaac, not Ishmael. So this commandment is not extended to the offspring of Ishmael. God says in verse 19 of chapter 17 that His covenant will be established through Isaac. God promises a separate blessing upon Ishmael, but the Abrahamic Covenant is not extended to Ishmael or his descendents. It was a physical covenant with Abraham, right? Not really. It was the confirmation of the covenant. The NIV gets the Hebrew right on this verse: Ge 17:2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers. Ge 17:11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. All who were Jews, were circumsized physically. Well, all who were obedient were. There are Jews today, who have never undergone this type of circumcision. Not all Jews are observant. The basis of circumcision is the Abrahamic Covenant. Some people have it backwards and they see circumcision as the basis for the Abrahamic Covenant, which is wrong. Circumcision rests on the Abrahamic Covenant, not the other way around. As I stated earlier, circumcision is not equivalent to salvation. Some view circumcision as the mark of the "faithful," but that is not what the Scripture teaches. Many Jews who engaged in pagan idolatry in ancient Israel were circumcised. It is nothing more than a confirmation and sign or emblem of the promise made to Abraham. Any attempt to exalt it as being more, is without biblical foundation. So when the Bible speaks of the "uncircumsized", it is speaking of the gentiles, right? Generally speaking yes, but the New Testament makes some interesting comments in this regard. I don't have time just now to go into all of this, just now. I will have to get deeper into this tonight after I come home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Just want to say THANK YOU although I have to play catch up with a lot of this as with the time differences I am in bed whilst you lot are having supper ( ) it is VERY informative and helpful...and Gia please keep asking questions they are often the questions I would ask if I was awake to ask them Shiloh..thank you so much You are ever so welcome!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Sweet dreams and God bless you Shiloh! Actually my dreams are usually pretty weird; you know, things like people riding on Giraffes while stealing my laundry. One time, I was both a UPS driver and a guest celebrity on Hollywood Squares at the same time. So that's the kind of stuff I have to look forward during REM sleep, God bless you too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted March 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Sweet dreams and God bless you Shiloh! Actually my dreams are usually pretty weird; you know, things like people riding on Giraffes while stealing my laundry. One time, I was both a UPS driver and a guest celebrity on Hollywood Squares at the same time. So that's the kind of stuff I have to look forward during REM sleep, God bless you too!! riding on giraffes and stealing your laundry.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giaour Posted March 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 179 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,941 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/08/1964 Author Share Posted March 22, 2007 Ok Shiloh, The word Gentile means non-Jew (which could be Christian as well)or pagan. When the Bible speaks of Gentiles , depending on the context, it means either pagan or Christian or non-Jew. The Bible says that the Gentiles who believe are circumsized in their heart which makes them Jews inwardly. Romans 2 vs 28 +29 So is this speaking of non-believing Jews or pagans or Christians? Galatians 3 vs 29 says that Gentiles who believe are Abrahams seed,heirs to the promise. So is this speaking of non-believing Jews or pagans or Christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 The word Gentile means non-Jew (which could be Christian as well)or pagan. Yes. When the Bible speaks of Gentiles , depending on the context, it means either pagan or Christian or non-Jew.Yes. The Bible says that the Gentiles who believe are circumsized in their heart which makes them Jews inwardly.No. That is not Paul's point in Romans 2:28-29. Circumcision of the heart is, originally, Old Testament concept. God commanded the ancient Israelites to circumcise their hearts (Deut. 10:16, Jer. 4:4). Circumcision of the heart has nothing to do with getting saved/salvation. Circumcision of the heart is something you do to yourself, not something God does to you. It amounts to you taking measures to remove sinful habits and practices from your life, to put away from you all spiritually impure influences Paul's point is not that Gentiles become "spiritual" or "inward" Jews. Paul is explaining to what it means to be a Jew. In chapter two of Romans, Paul, by way of illustration for his Gentile audience, creates an imaginary Jewish audience to further drive home the point that true Jewishness is not wrapped up in one's ethnic pedigree, or outward observances, but is a matter of having a right heart before the Lord. He is essentially telling Jews what it means to be Jew. It is a way demonstrating to his Gentile audience that the Jewish people are not at an advantage over the Gentiles simply because they were the recipients of the Torah. There is no such thing as a "spiritual" Jew. "Jewish" is an ethnicity, not a spiritual state of being. Romans 2 vs 28 +29 So is this speaking of non-believing Jews or pagans or Christians? Neither. Paul is talking about what being Jewish is really all about. He is not telling Gentiles they are Jews. I addressed this in an earlier post, about a day or two ago. Galatians 3 vs 29 says that Gentiles who believe are Abrahams seed,heirs to the promise. So is this speaking of non-believing Jews or pagans or Christians? It is talking about anyone who has accepted Christ. Paul was directing at the Galatians in particular because they were trying to become the physical seed of Abraham beause they had been deceived into thinking this was necessary for salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted March 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2007 I am wondering why Christians pick and choose which Biblical laws they want to follow. Shalom, Ummm, WHO are you talking about? You certainly aren't talking about me. I don't pick and choose anything. The ENTIRE Scriptures are applicable and profitable. A perfect example of how to live is found in our L-rd Yeshua. He kept the Law as well as embodied it. If it's good enough for Yeshua, it's good enough for me. A better question would be, why do SOME Christians refuse to accept the ENTIRE Bible and they dismiss and ignore anything that came before the book of Matthew when the Scriptures actually say that ALL Scripture is profitable. 2 Timothy 3 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Jesus kept the laws because He was a Jew. His time had not yet come. When He sacrificed Himself on the cross, he brought us grace. He fulfilled the law and set us captives free. We live by grace not by law. Christ kept the Law because He Loved His Father, not because He was a jew. Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to keep it, uphold it, to fulfill it...... IF YOU LOVE (that is if you truely honestly, wholeheartedly, with out reservation) ME, YOU WILL (not maybe, not some, not just the ones you agree with) KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.... not because we have to, but because we want to...... if I love some one, i do the best i can, and all i can to do what is pleasing to them..... if I love the Lord, i will do what is pleasing for Him.... just like loving my wife, i will do what I can to accomplish that which is pleasing for her..... just because we have been saved, just because we become Christians, does not give us the right/privilage to be able to ignore the laws..... on the contrary, we are to uphold the law..... when we came to Christ we are no longer the old person, but we have become a new person..... the law is still there, those that have taken Christ, are now under grace.... the penalty of the law is not upon us.... that being DEATH..... the law is still there....... there are some that believe that they can crucify Christ over and over and over again.... there is only one Christ..... we are not to live the old way, going out and getting drunk and cussin and druggin, and whoremongering, cat callin, cheating you fellow man..... we are to live an upright holy life.... one that Christ set before us... we are only righteous through Christ, are we good enough to come in and out of Christ as we desire? are we to blatently sin, just because we feel that even that sin is forgiven? NO>>>> we are to crucify the flesh, we are to become overcomers...... The Law (COMMANDMENTS) are still in place..... the penalty has been removed for those that have become overcomers.....(overcoming the flesh) Paul even said he crucified himself daily.... it is not a question as to whether or not we have to keep the commandments, or whether or not they were ment for us........ if we keep the first and second greatest commandments, the others will fall in line, for the two greatest cover all the others...... mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Circumcision of the heart is something you do to yourself, not something God does to you. It amounts to you taking measures to remove sinful habits and practices from your life, to put away from you all spiritually impure influences. The Bible tells me that is an untrue statement. God is completely sovereign and nothing we do can be outside the scope of His control and Holy Will. Therefore, it is only by His Power that those things are removed from our life/heart. Romans 2:28-29 28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted March 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2007 that is true, but we also have the choice of free will and we can go against His Will as we please.... the Lord took cigarettes from me, it was up to me to leave them alone....... the Lord took alcoholism away from me, it is up to me to remain clean, i have that choice...... the Lord took meth away from a young man very dear to my heart, it is up to him to leave it alone...... for some, the Lord took porn away, it is upto them to not look at it again.... satan will still use these things to try and draw, to coax, to tempt us, satan knows our weaknesses, it is up to us to resist him and his tricks..... it is still our choice..... mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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