Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory. What bible is this? It is one of the seven Deutero-Canonical books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted April 25, 2007 Dear sir, When newer versions insert words that significantly change the meaning of the verse you should be cautious. Changing the word from closet to room does not effect the core meaning or message. Changing from world to age does. This is why at that point a person should try to look back to the original language, which I did. In its original language it is a reference to an after life. So yes I completely agree that when we study the Bible we should learn to study it properly God Bless, K.D. it's best you keep running circles on Axe because I understand your motive. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted April 25, 2007 OK, first things first: Luke 12:43-48... "Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. "Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. This is a pretty straightforward parable about how we are responsible for what we have been given by God. As God finds us faithful, so will our rewards be divvied out. Nothing here about any in-between place. When Christ comes and we are standing before Him, we are judged according to what we have done with our opportunities for Him, and the spreading of the gospel, etc. Those who are loyal to the Lord, and maintain their gifts by using them, and are obedient to the call on their lives will receive a great reward. People who disobey and not love will be dealt with harshly as unbelievers, and will not find a home in heaven, but rather Hell. Immature, baby Christians who are just learning how to serve the Lord, will not be held to the same standard. It just goes to demonstrate how the rewards will not all be equal. Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skiped a few lines in your conclusion. First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree. So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second comming. On this I think we agree. So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct? So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven. Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven. Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell. You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards. God Bless, K.D. What are you talking about? Those who beat did evil and never entered heaven. Are you talking about where the rewards and sentences are carried out? They are carried out in the Throne Room. No other place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted April 25, 2007 neither in this world, neither in the world to come This world is here and now. The next world is the one to come. The New Earth. Purgatory is not any world, and neither is it to come, if that is what you are thinking, for it is supposed to exist contemporaneously with this world, is it not? There is absolutely no inference of another existence beside the here and now and the Kingdom of God, in the heavenly realm. As I explained to exrockstar, this is very obvious, Jesus is talking to people who are very much alive. For the audience he is talking to and in context the next world in its original Greek is a reference to the after life, and would most definitely be an existence in their future not their present. Further for your assumption to be true we would suffer in the new earth. I hardly think so. This verse clearly refers to an existence, after the one we know on earth, where we will suffer loss. Can this possibly happen in heaven or on "the new Earth" Sinners have no place in the New Earth. The judgment of sin takes place at the close of that age, the Millennial reign. That is when there will be no mercy for sin. In the meantime the dead will have been waiting in Sheol/Hades/Hell, and then they will see Hell/Gehenna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory. What bible is this? It is one of the seven Deutero-Canonical books It is not of the Canon. Not Biblical. So, put that aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Dear sir, When newer versions insert words that significantly change the meaning of the verse you should be cautious. Changing the word from closet to room does not effect the core meaning or message. Changing from world to age does. This is why at that point a person should try to look back to the original language, which I did. In its original language it is a reference to an after life. So yes I completely agree that when we study the Bible we should learn to study it properly God Bless, K.D. it's best you keep running circles on Axe because I understand your motive. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Let me give you a little advise about posting on forum boards. It is generally not a good idea to try and assume peoples motives. You have very little refference to base your assumption on and more often then not you are wrong. I have made this very error myself. It is best if you just take peoples words exactly as they are and not project your own biases into them. People do come from very different backgrounds and cultures. Often what a person "reads" into the post is actually more a reflection of themselves. Yes I will continue to engage in conversation with Floating Axe. We often disagree, but she is my sister in Christ always! God Bless, Kansas Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I trust that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory. What bible is this? It is one of the seven Deutero-Canonical books It is not of the Canon. Not Biblical. So, put that aside. Actually it is, but that is a whole different discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted April 25, 2007 OK, first things first: Luke 12:43-48... "Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. "Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. This is a pretty straightforward parable about how we are responsible for what we have been given by God. As God finds us faithful, so will our rewards be divvied out. Nothing here about any in-between place. When Christ comes and we are standing before Him, we are judged according to what we have done with our opportunities for Him, and the spreading of the gospel, etc. Those who are loyal to the Lord, and maintain their gifts by using them, and are obedient to the call on their lives will receive a great reward. People who disobey and not love will be dealt with harshly as unbelievers, and will not find a home in heaven, but rather Hell. Immature, baby Christians who are just learning how to serve the Lord, will not be held to the same standard. It just goes to demonstrate how the rewards will not all be equal. Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skiped a few lines in your conclusion. First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree. So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second comming. On this I think we agree. So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct? So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven. Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven. Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell. You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards. God Bless, K.D. What are you talking about? Those who beat did evil and never entered heaven. Are you talking about where the rewards and sentences are carried out? They are carried out in the Throne Room. No other place. And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. This is not a refference to rewards, and these people are not destined for Hell. Where does the spiritual beating take place? It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliyahuw Posted April 25, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,263 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/17/1961 Share Posted April 25, 2007 OK, first things first: Luke 12:43-48... "Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. "Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. This is a pretty straightforward parable about how we are responsible for what we have been given by God. As God finds us faithful, so will our rewards be divvied out. Nothing here about any in-between place. When Christ comes and we are standing before Him, we are judged according to what we have done with our opportunities for Him, and the spreading of the gospel, etc. Those who are loyal to the Lord, and maintain their gifts by using them, and are obedient to the call on their lives will receive a great reward. People who disobey and not love will be dealt with harshly as unbelievers, and will not find a home in heaven, but rather Hell. Immature, baby Christians who are just learning how to serve the Lord, will not be held to the same standard. It just goes to demonstrate how the rewards will not all be equal. Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skiped a few lines in your conclusion. First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree. So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second comming. On this I think we agree. So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct? So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven. Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven. Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell. You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards. God Bless, K.D. What are you talking about? Those who beat did evil and never entered heaven. Are you talking about where the rewards and sentences are carried out? They are carried out in the Throne Room. No other place. And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. This is not a refference to rewards, and these people are not destined for Hell. Where does the spiritual beating take place? It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell? You know you both have missed the meaning of this parable. Jesus was talking about the disciples, as well as every minister on down from them. this is directed to all ministers/pastors not anyone else other than them. They are in charge of the flock/church body of caring for them, feeding them, nurturing them but if they abuse them and beat them, I.E. Spiritual abuse, then the master will come again and it will not be a pretty sight for those that have abused their authority given to them. Ministers or Servents (1.) They are made rulers of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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