Purgatory...defend this false doctrine!

[gypc]

Someone asked to make another thread for this so I did. Please show us in scripture where this is and why we should pay money to the church to pray us out. My stand is that the blood of Jesus is enough to atone for sins.

[Floatingaxe]

It is not a Biblical belief. It is a belief spawned by some early pope, as a money making enterprise for the church, propbably as a means also to assuage the grief of families who lost children to disease, as the infant mortality rates in the middle ages were extremely high.

[CaritateDei]

First of all:

Revelation 21:27 - Nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]

Though we are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, we still sin...often. Those sins will stick with us, despite Jesus' death on a cross. They are actual sins. Because of the stains of those sins, we shall be cleansed before we enter.

On that note:

Matthew 12:32

"Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come."

If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

1 Corinthians 3:15

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire."

Again, this cannot refer to hell. No one in hell is saved. It cannot refer to heaven either, because no one in Heaven will suffer. Where does this suffering come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the Ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons were saved through water."

Continuing on that same note:

1 Peter 4:6

"For this is why the Gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God."

A prison for disobedient spirits...yet some of the dead were saved after Jesus preached to them. This prison that is referred to by Peter is cannot be hell, because no one in hell can be saved. This prison cannot refer to the land of the dead fathers...(Abraham, Adam, Moses...Abraham's bosom) because this was a place for disobedient spirits. Peter is not describing the waiting of the righteous in mentioning disobedient spirits. He is describing a temporary state for disobedient souls who were eventually saved.

On top of that - Paul describes prayer for the dead. Why should we pray for the dead? If they are in heaven, they need not our prayer. If they are in hell, our prayer cannot help them.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 -

"May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains...may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day."

On top of that:

1 Corinthians 10: 12

"Whoever thinks he is standing secure shall take care, for he may fall."

If it is possible to fall though secured by Christ, we should indeed hope for cleansing.

Samuel Johnson: (1769 AD)

"Sir, [purgatory] is a very harmless Doctrine. [Romans] are of the opinion that the generality of mankind are neither so obstinately wicked as to deserve everlasting punishment, nor so good as to merit being admitted into the society of blessed spirits; and therefore that God is graciously pleased to allow a middle state, where they may be purified by certain degrees of suffering. You see, Sir, there is nothing unreasonable in this."

C.S. Lewis Letters to Malcom: Chiefly on Prayer

Our souls DEMAND purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my Son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy"? Should we not reply, "With submission, Sir, and if there is no objection, I'd RATHER be cleaned first."

God: "It may hurt you know."

Us: "Even so, Sir."

[Floatingaxe]

Wow! How far off the mark.

So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day.

[CaritateDei]

Wow! How far off the mark.

So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day.

Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right."

I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory?

[Floatingaxe]

Wow! How far off the mark.

So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day.

Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right."

I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory?

Well the Bible is quite plain that everyone who believes is assured of Salvation! What Bible are you reading?????

What is harmful is that first, it is a lie. Second, and most importantly, it renders the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as worthless, incapable of salvation.

[exrockstar]

CaritateDei,

just off curiosity before you get bombarded.

if people placed some scripture clarifying some of those verses that you have; are you

willing to break out of that purgotory belief or is it embedded so deep in you that you will not budge? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[Eliyahuw]

Wow! How far off the mark.

So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day.

Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right."

I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory?

It doesn't matter about your single points. what matters is all of what your saying says the blood of christ is not enough. that in itself is enough to show your off the mark. WAY off the mark.

Christs blood atoned for all sin. So no one has to pay any price for sin unless they die unsaved.

[CaritateDei]

CaritateDei,

just off curiosity before you get bombarded.

if people placed some scripture clarifying some of those verses that you have; are you

willing to break out of that purgotory belief or is it embedded so deep in you that you will not budge? ... 3xR0c|<stAr

I am very open to hearing responses and clarification.

[CaritateDei]

Wow! How far off the mark.

So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day.

Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right."

I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory?

Well the Bible is quite plain that everyone who believes is assurted of Salvation! What Bible are you reading?????

What is harmful is that first, it is a lie. Second, and most importantly, it renders the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as worthless, incapable of salvation.

So...the Bible lies. Ok.