Servus Christi Posted May 25, 2007 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2007 If I'm not mistaken, the doctrine of purgatory can probably be found in the apocrypha (which, I should point out, is "apocryphal" for a reason). "Apocryphal" has many meanings. For instance the Roman Catholic Church has her own set of Apocryphal books, which encompass all of the Gnostic gospels and spurious writtings. The Protestant "Apocrypha", or the Catholic "Deuterocanonical" books, should not even be disputed, seeing the overwhelming flood of history and logic, that utterly refutes the idea of the Protestant "Apocryphal" books, as being spurious. Beatus Dei, ave Christos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Say What! Oh Yeah..... Beware! Man's Tradition Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Colossians 2:8 Nay! Church Me No Man's Church. It Is The Lord Jesus of Nazareth Only! All Other Ways Are The Ways of Eternal Torment. Jesus Christ For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.1 Corinthians 2:2 Question? Simple Old Man that I am..... Are the replies posted in this thread intended to bring Honor and Glory and Worship to The Lord Jesus Christ. Are the replies posted in this thread intended to proclaim another Christ? Question to any who are adding traditions of man to God's Word, are you truly saved? Upon what Rock do you place your faith? What think ye of Christ? If any man except The Lord Jesus stands between you and The Throne of God, what do your Spiritual Masters ask you to add to or take away from this..... For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:16 And from this...... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Ephesians 2:8 The Only Way! Walk After The Lord Cleave Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.Deuteronomy 13:4 Dear Old Brother Peter Says..... No Redemption In Traditions of Papas Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:1 Peter 1:18-19 Be Blessed The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25 Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted May 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 115 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 8,281 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/03/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/30/1955 Share Posted May 25, 2007 The doctrine developed because the Roman church has too low a view of Christ's redemptive work on the cross. People WANTED TO KNOW: "Am I going to hell, if I haven't repented for some sin just before I die?" Well in Roman Theology this represented a quandry; for no sin can go to heaven, and no unrepented sin is forgiven by Jesus' atonement, BUT no baptized Christian can go to hell. SOOOOOO, logically, there had to be SOME PLACE where a baptized Christian with unrepented sin COULD go, to have that sin 'purged' before his entry into Heaven! So 'Purg'atory was invented out of whole cloth. That's what happens when you 'baptize' Aristotle!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2007 Wow! How far off the mark. So the blood of Jesus is incapable of cleansing us from all sin? Believing that lie will get you into a lot of trouble one Day. Here is the problem. You do not respond to a single point I made. You just say, "You're wrong, I'm right." I have quoted the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that no one is assured of salvation. What is so harmful about purgatory? Well the Bible is quite plain that everyone who believes is assurted of Salvation! What Bible are you reading????? What is harmful is that first, it is a lie. Second, and most importantly, it renders the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as worthless, incapable of salvation. So...the Bible lies. Ok. (edited by moderator). Purgatory was made before Christ, meaning Christ had not died yet. His sacrifice is not worthless, nor incapable of granting salvation. He died that we "MIGHT" go too heaven, not so that we "MUST" go to heaven. He died to forgive sins, that does not mean we are going to Heaven. If He did indeed forgive our sins, why ask for forgivness, they are already forgiven, and why ask for forgivness your going to Heaven anyways.... Your jumping to the left wing, saying if Purgatory exists then Christ's sacrifice is worthless, when it is quite the opposite. Purgatory states that, while Christ did forgive our sins, we must repent because we must be "purged" of the stain of that sin. Purgatory is extremely scriptural. I do pose a question however, where in scripture, does it say that there is only a Heaven and a Hell? Beatus Dei, ave Christos! At Worthy we ask people not to get hung up on particular denominations. We also ask that people no come onto the boards with the idea of engaging in an apologetic for their denomination, or to try and convert people to their denomination. You are free to debate issues, but please leave the denominational distinctives out of the discussion. Thanks, the mod team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 25, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2007 I merged another topic regarding purgatory in with this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus Christi Posted May 26, 2007 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2007 The doctrine developed because the Roman church has too low a view of Christ's redemptive work on the cross. People WANTED TO KNOW: "Am I going to hell, if I haven't repented for some sin just before I die?" Well in Roman Theology this represented a quandry; for no sin can go to heaven, and no unrepented sin is forgiven by Jesus' atonement, BUT no baptized Christian can go to hell. SOOOOOO, logically, there had to be SOME PLACE where a baptized Christian with unrepented sin COULD go, to have that sin 'purged' before his entry into Heaven! So 'Purg'atory was invented out of whole cloth. That's what happens when you 'baptize' Aristotle!!! First off, Purgatory is mentioned in Maccabees. Now whether you believe in the legitamacy of this in relavancy to God-inspired is of no consequence. Historically Judas Maccabees was a leader of the Jewish people. This book was composed in 175B.C.-135B.C., and mentions the selucid dynasty which was dated back to 312 B.C. The point is the Jew's believe in a purgatorial place, long before the Roman Catholic Church named it. The belief that you cannot enter heaven unworthaly dates back to B.C. Second, you can definently go to hell if you are baptized, and the Church say's nothing other wise. If you could give me the quotes of the Church, or leaders of the Church that said anything other wise I would be very happy. Aristotle?? Purging is through out the entire Bible. We see in Hab. 1:13, that God is too pure to behold evil. what is this evil? In 1st John 5:16-17, two types of sin are mentioned. What happens if we die, with the "not deadly sin"? 1st Cor. 3:15-16, speaks of Purgatory undesputably, in fact check out all of these Church Fathers that argue the existence of Purgatory based off of this scripture. St. Ambrose (commentary on text, Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii.), St. Jerome, (comm. in Amos, c. iv.) St. Augustine, (comm. in Ps. xxxvii.) St. Gregory, (Dial., IV xxxix.) Origen, (Hom. vi. in Exod.) St. Ambrose gives the best example. In the 4th century St. Ambrose spoke on 1st Cor. 3, at the emporeres funeral, praying that Theodosius, would be admitted into heaven through St. Ambroses "prayers and lammentations." Jesus speaks of Purgatory as a "prison" in Luke 12:58-59, in which you will not get out until the last penny is paid. This same "prison" is seen in 1 Peter 3:19. The ignorant assumption that Purgatory was invented by Roman Catholics, is far off kilter. The Jew's believed in Purgatory long before Roman Catholicism, we just gave it a name and enforced it with scripture. In fact Martin Luther debated it's existence with hesitation, because it was believed by the Jew's by the Roman Catholic's it's existence is undepsputable, however the other reformists, wanted complete rebellion, ignoring logic, they disbanded Purgatory as anti-Scriptural. However Martin Luther did debate with hesitation, as see in the Leipzig disputation. Now modern Protestants are resurrecting the Purgatory abandoned by the Protestants so long ago. They call it the "middle state" as seen in Christian dogmatics, Edinburgh 1890 p. 457. Beatus Dei, ave Christos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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