Purgatory...defend this false doctrine!

[Kansasdad]

Let me ask you Saints. Has anyone prayed concerning thier speaking in this thread? I hear so many ideas and assumptions. Why dont we just admit that "we dont know" or "are not complete in our understanding". If God has not opened up certian things unto us the best thing to do is be quiet. And if He has then the best thing to do is to ask Him if the time is proper to reveal it. And when it is revealed it will be simple, Scripture will testify of it, and you wont have to jumble up scriptures to make the point.

Too much trust in our so-called knowledge in the Word puffs us up. This thread has so much death in it. I have not heard Life being shared. Our common ground is Christ; let's stand on His ground and view the land from our position in Him. I love you all but I pray that you see that not only is this not going anywhere but who is being edified. Let that be the question. Lord Jesus is this edifying, is this building up Your Body? Frankly, all this is doing is displaying our lack, which often can be wonderful if we will embrace it. Speak Life that we all may be edified; if it is not Life then it is of that other tree which equals death.

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

I appreciate your post, ruck. However, the whole concept of the thread determines if Christ is edified or not, which goes back to whether the body is edified or not. The body cannot be edified without the Head being edified. There are a lot of "he said, she said" threads out there; I do not believe this is one of them. I think it's an important issue, and for a Christian to mature in Christ, the question of what happens after death needs to be answered. This thread, I believe, is attempting to do that. Scripture has been quoted and searched and analyzed. Does that help the children of the King? Yes!!! I don't know how many people have prayed before posting their response, and it's not my concern. My concern is whether I pray before I post. That I do (most of the time !)

Having said that to ruck, I will ask some things of Kansasdad (I love your user name, BTW): Thanks

1. You said Scripture needs to back up Scripture. I agree. However, there have been many posts on this thread in which people have posted Scripture after Scripture after Scripture (Scripture backing up Scripture) which state that Christ's blood is sufficient to gain us entrance into Heaven. I've noticed you have tended to not acknowledge these. My question is: why?

2. You told FA (I think!) that her understanding of Jesus' statement, "It is finished," was not the correct one. I don't recall you saying what Jesus actually meant by that phrase, if it wasn't the fact that the work needed to get us into Heaven was done. Maybe you did, and I missed it. If so, I apologize, and could you repeat it?

3. When the Bible says that God has forgiven us all our sins, what does the word "all" mean to you?

I like the fact that you brought the thread back on focus, KD. But I still think you're wrong . Please prove me right if you can.

BTW, I believe there is no pergutory because I have "searched the Scriptures" and I find that beyond my works of rightousness (which are nothing), there's no other way God can look at me (because I sin and God can't look at sin) without Jesus making restitution with God and me (Romans 5:1). As far as the verses you quoted: I can explain some of them with the Greek, I can explain some of them with the times of the day, I can explain some with the context in which they were spoken. I cannot explain them all, nor would I want to try. (Just as you cannot explain all the verses that have been quoted to you.) What I would explain is how the concept of pergutory does not fit in with the concept of salvation. That, I believe, is what most of the posters on this thread have been trying to do. So can you explain to us how pergutory fits into the concept of salvation? And maybe that should be question number 4 to you: what, exactly, does salvation mean to you, Kansasdad? Is it works of righteousness, which pergutory implies? Or is it grace, which God's Word talks about quite frequently? You may believe what you want about pergutory, but what you do with Jesus is the utmost!

Peace.

Thank you for this heart given post. It is much appreciated.

I just spent the last 35-40 minutes typing, looking up scripture verses for support and typing some more to only hit the wrong part of the tab and closed my browser. Quite frankly I am now quite brain dead and disappointed in myself. I will try again but not tonight, and I will try to answer as completely as possible.

God Bless,

K.D.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Floatingaxe]

Perhaps it is just as well. Perhaps the Lord directed it, KD.

Goodnight...

[Kansasdad]

OK, first things first:

Luke 12:43-48...

"Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

"Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

"And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

This is a pretty straightforward parable about how we are responsible for what we have been given by God. As God finds us faithful, so will our rewards be divvied out.

Nothing here about any in-between place. When Christ comes and we are standing before Him, we are judged according to what we have done with our opportunities for Him, and the spreading of the gospel, etc. Those who are loyal to the Lord, and maintain their gifts by using them, and are obedient to the call on their lives will receive a great reward. People who disobey and not love will be dealt with harshly as unbelievers, and will not find a home in heaven, but rather Hell.

Immature, baby Christians who are just learning how to serve the Lord, will not be held to the same standard. It just goes to demonstrate how the rewards will not all be equal.

Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skipped a few lines in your conclusion.

First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree.

So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second coming. On this I think we agree.

So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct?

So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell

Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven.

Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven.

Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell.

You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards.

God Bless,

K.D.

What are you talking about? Those who beat did evil and never entered heaven. Are you talking about where the rewards and sentences are carried out? They are carried out in the Throne Room. No other place.

And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

This is not a reference to rewards, and these people are not destined for Hell. Where does the spiritual beating take place? It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell?

You know you both have missed the meaning of this parable. Jesus was talking about the disciples, as well as every minister on down from them.

this is directed to all ministers/pastors not anyone else other than them.

They are in charge of the flock/church body of caring for them, feeding them, nurturing them but if they abuse them and beat them, I.E. Spiritual abuse, then the master will come again and it will not be a pretty sight for those that have abused their authority given to them.

Ministers or Servents

(1.) They are made rulers of God

[Floatingaxe]

Why couldn't it happen at the appointed time of judgment? At the appointed place before Christ? We will all stand before Him and receive our reward, life. Those whom He does not know will receive death. It is the appointment we all will keep, and it happens then and there. No other place...right before the Lamb's Book of Life.

[Eliyahuw]

Why couldn't it happen at the appointed time of judgment? At the appointed place before Christ? We will all stand before Him and receive our reward, life. Those whom He does not know will receive death. It is the appointment we all will keep, and it happens then and there. No other place...right before the Lamb's Book of Life.

Because this particular passage specifically speaks about the second coming. When is the second coming?? When christ returns at armageddon and sets foot on the mount of olives and splits it. when he sets foot on this earth again. GWT judgement doesn't happen for another 1000 years, and the only other judgement is for christians to give out their rewards.

these "servents" will reap their christian reward if their christian at all during the 1000 year reign. I am guessing since it doesn't specifically say, that they will be slaves during that period of time and christ will dole out their punishment.

[exrockstar]

Why couldn't it happen at the appointed time of judgment? At the appointed place before Christ? We will all stand before Him and receive our reward, life. Those whom He does not know will receive death. It is the appointment we all will keep, and it happens then and there. No other place...right before the Lamb's Book of Life.

Because this particular passage specifically speaks about the second coming. When is the second coming?? When christ returns at armageddon and sets foot on the mount of olives and splits it. when he sets foot on this earth again. GWT judgement doesn't happen for another 1000 years, and the only other judgement is for christians to give out their rewards.

these "servents" will reap their christian reward if their christian at all during the 1000 year reign. I am guessing since it doesn't specifically say, that they will be slaves during that period of time and christ will dole out their punishment.

I am trying to see who's saying what but Eliy what youre stating is what I've personally read through my studies.

You are in line on what I've (and my collegues) have read.

Keep in mind also that that the next age or dispensation will come in and it will be the 1000 year reign.

Along with the church, and those "ushered" from one dispensation to the next, there will be new generations of mankind living.

there is a passage in Ezek that shows people's mortality in that coming era.

People will live longer, etc. etc.

I can't say that I've ever heard of Christian slaves in the 1000 years but you will have Christians that will

spend a lot of time thinking about their actions and beliefs within the 1000 years. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

this is off topic lol

Edited April 26, 2007 by exrockstar

[Smalcald]

For me on purgatory there are two main scriptural issues or problems.

1.) It would see to imply that even if our sins are forgiven by Christ that in itself is not good enough.

2.) What was Paul talking about when he spoke of us getting new glorified bodies? Do these bodies then go to purgatory or is purgatory where we would receive them? It just to me seems to cause some deep logical problems for the doctrine of purgatory.

[CaritateDei]

For me on purgatory there are two main scriptural issues or problems.

1.) It would see to imply that even if our sins are forgiven by Christ that in itself is not good enough.

2.) What was Paul talking about when he spoke of us getting new glorified bodies? Do these bodies then go to purgatory or is purgatory where we would receive them? It just to me seems to cause some deep logical problems for the doctrine of purgatory.

There are no scriptural problems here, Smalcald.

1.) Christ redeemed us, placing our sins on his back, self sacrificing his body so that we might be redeemed...so that we might have the possibility of heaven. That being said, it is still easy for us all to fall...fall from Christ again and again, because we sin so much. Purgatory just cleanses our imperfection. It is not about forgiveness, but more about cleansing.

2.) There is no logical problem here. In order that the body may be glorified, it must be cleansed. There is complete logic. C.S. Lewis. Samuel Johnson.

[Floatingaxe]

For me on purgatory there are two main scriptural issues or problems.

1.) It would see to imply that even if our sins are forgiven by Christ that in itself is not good enough.

2.) What was Paul talking about when he spoke of us getting new glorified bodies? Do these bodies then go to purgatory or is purgatory where we would receive them? It just to me seems to cause some deep logical problems for the doctrine of purgatory.

There are no scriptural problems here, Smalcald.

1.) Christ redeemed us, placing our sins on his back, self sacrificing his body so that we might be redeemed...so that we might have the possibility of heaven. That being said, it is still easy for us all to fall...fall from Christ again and again, because we sin so much. Purgatory just cleanses our imperfection. It is not about forgiveness, but more about cleansing.

2.) There is no logical problem here. In order that the body may be glorified, it must be cleansed. There is complete logic. C.S. Lewis. Samuel Johnson.

RIDICULOUS! Do you actually hear yourself?

JESUS' BLOOD IS THE ONLY CLEANSER!

[EricH]

For me on purgatory there are two main scriptural issues or problems.

1.) It would see to imply that even if our sins are forgiven by Christ that in itself is not good enough.

2.) What was Paul talking about when he spoke of us getting new glorified bodies? Do these bodies then go to purgatory or is purgatory where we would receive them? It just to me seems to cause some deep logical problems for the doctrine of purgatory.

There are no scriptural problems here, Smalcald.

1.) Christ redeemed us, placing our sins on his back, self sacrificing his body so that we might be redeemed...so that we might have the possibility of heaven. That being said, it is still easy for us all to fall...fall from Christ again and again, because we sin so much. Purgatory just cleanses our imperfection. It is not about forgiveness, but more about cleansing.

2.) There is no logical problem here. In order that the body may be glorified, it must be cleansed. There is complete logic. C.S. Lewis. Samuel Johnson.

Citing someone who holds the position does not guarantee there are not logical problems with the argument