All Israel will be saved!

[Guest shiloh357]

Especially when it deals with the subject of Israel of the FLESH.......

That is the only Israel there is. The bible NEVER uses Israel to mean anything else.

The idea that Jews are the "fake" Israel and the church is the "true Israel" is not communicated in the New Testament. Neither is the notion that God created the Church to be a sepaate entity apart from Israel.

Jews, Jewish believers and Gentile believers are three sub sets of Israel and we see this borne out in Paul's olive tree metaphor.

The reason the metaphor is so confusing is because people are trying to interpret it in the light of the current situation. If the Church is grafted into Israel (and the olive tree IS Israel) then how does it remain a separate entity? Paul was not going about preaching a new religion, but rather saw the coming of the Messiah to be fulfillment of his Jewish faith. Jesus was not termination of Paul's Jewishness, but rather the augmentation of it.

Paul in this metaphor, views the Gentiles as being grafted into Israel. He does not declare a new Israel or a "True Israel" or any of that unbiblical stuff. The metaphor of the olive tree is simple to understand when you interpret like a person living in the 1st century, before the Gentiles split themselves off and decided THEY were Israel and that they were the "true Israel." It is that arrogance that Paul warned about, but that warning has largely been ignored.

[Vickilynn]

Especially when it deals with the subject of Israel of the FLESH.......

That is the only Israel there is. The bible NEVER uses Israel to mean anything else.

The idea that Jews are the "fake" Israel and the church is the "true Israel" is not communicated in the New Testament. Neither is the notion that God created the Church to be a sepaate entity apart from Israel.

Jews, Jewish believers and Gentile believers are three sub sets of Israel and we see this borne out in Paul's olive tree metaphor.

The reason the metaphor is so confusing is because people are trying to interpret it in the light of the current situation. If the Church is grafted into Israel (and the olive tree IS Israel) then how does it remain a separate entity? Paul was not going about preaching a new religion, but rather saw the coming of the Messiah to be fulfillment of his Jewish faith. Jesus was not termination of Paul's Jewishness, but rather the augmentation of it.

Paul in this metaphor, views the Gentiles as being grafted into Israel. He does not declare a new Israel or a "True Israel" or any of that unbiblical stuff. The metaphor of the olive tree is simple to understand when you interpret like a person living in the 1st century, before the Gentiles split themselves off and decided THEY were Israel and that they were the "true Israel." It is that arrogance that Paul warned about, but that warning has largely been ignored.

Shalom,

Amen!!!

[Smalcald]

When did the historical gentile separation began?

It seems that the Jewish Christian believers were scattered and decimated, along with all of Jerusalem in 70ad, and all that was left as a cohesive group of congregations, (not spiritually) at that specific time, were the gentile believers living in Asia Minor and Rome. Thus they could not be with their Jewish brothers and sisters even if they had wanted. Combine this with the fact that the Jewish believers (those following James etc in Jerusalem) basically disappeared, would certainly have left the gentile believers thinking that they were the only believers left. How could they join or separate with a group of people that did not exist?

But maybe I am reading history wrong here, what exactly became of the Jewish Congregations of believers after the Diaspora, and I guess I would ask why God let those congregations die out? God does guide His Church we know that to be true.

[Guest shiloh357]

When did the historical gentile separation began?

In 4th Century under Constantine.

Thus they could not be with their Jewish brothers and sisters even if they had wanted.

Not true.

But maybe I am reading history wrong here

No, not maybe... Definitely.

The separation occured long after the diaspora. The diaspora does not offer any excuse.

Jews who became believers were forced to adopt Gentile patterns. Beginnning with Constantine, anything of a Hebraic flavor was expunged from "Christianity" and Jews could no longer observe Passover. In fact, after Constantine on down the line. Laws were passed forbidding Christians to do buisness with Jews, or even allow Jews to own property.

An entire theology was erected to impose this separation on to the New Testament, such as the Church thinking that IT has become the "true Israel" and all of that nonsense.

[Giaour]

Since all of creation came from Adam and Eve, and then Noah, wouldnt that make every single person alive, part Jewish?

[Guest shiloh357]

Since all of creation came from Adam and Eve, and then Noah, wouldnt that make every single person alive, part Jewish?

No

[apothanein kerdos]

When did the historical gentile separation began?

In 4th Century under Constantine.

Thus they could not be with their Jewish brothers and sisters even if they had wanted.

Not true.

But maybe I am reading history wrong here

No, not maybe... Definitely.

The separation occured long after the diaspora. The diaspora does not offer any excuse.

Jews who became believers were forced to adopt Gentile patterns. Beginnning with Constantine, anything of a Hebraic flavor was expunged from "Christianity" and Jews could no longer observe Passover. In fact, after Constantine on down the line. Laws were passed forbidding Christians to do buisness with Jews, or even allow Jews to own property.

An entire theology was erected to impose this separation on to the New Testament, such as the Church thinking that IT has become the "true Israel" and all of that nonsense.

The only thing I would disagree with is that this didn't begin in the 4th century. Though it became official in the 4th century, many Gentile believers began to preach this and hold anti-Jew views around the 2nd century and beyond.

Regardless, it doesn't make it right and the idea that the Church replaced Israel, like Dr. Emir Caner says, is a theological holocaust.

[sweetycakes]

When we go about trying to define "Israel," there are some important facts to keep in mind. One of the most important is that "Israel" is used the same way in the New Testament as it is used in the Old Testament.

One interesting thing is that God in the Scriptures uses the terms "Israel" and "Jacob" interchangably.

One thing that bears noting is that the names,

[Giaour]

Since all of creation came from Adam and Eve, and then Noah, wouldnt that make every single person alive, part Jewish?

No

I was serious, but thanks for laughing in my face.

[None]

Since all of creation came from Adam and Eve, and then Noah, wouldnt that make every single person alive, part Jewish?

No

I was serious, but thanks for laughing in my face.

When Jesus said He is the beginning and the end of the seed of David, He made it clear to us that there is no longer a need for genealogical records. We're God's children now, under Jesus.